Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

The MK4 top mount design isn't great. I've been umming and erring about trying to fit something like this:
CCPVW_fs.jpg


Oddly though, I've managed to get 3 degrees (max) camber but run 2.5 day to day. Even that isn't kind on tyres (with zero toe). I run the IDF arms though which might make a difference.
 
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I like those Sam! Love that they're offset as static before you make any adjustments too :)

I think I could just get to 3 degrees on mine if I rotated the slots to be left right only, but it would be at the expense of precious caster which I have no intention of sacrificing!
 
Mine are diagonally setup corner to corner if that makes sense. I'm at my whits end with them though, replaced bearings twice and still get a rattle. I'm starting to think the shocks are a little too firm for Sydney roads and aren't absorbing enough so the bearings wear faster. I think it's time for a set of KW V3s.
 
I guess you're not really wanting to look into custom wishbones, or see if there's another hub (less likely) that'd give a little more track width? That way you'd have the additional camber you're after without losing caster angle and retain the stock top mount config. Obviously you'd still have the compound adjustment at the top, rather than independent cabmer/caster though.
 
Thanks for the link mate, that’s a good price too.

I’ve actually had my LifeLine Fire Marshall 4.0 System installed for 3 years now J

I think it was Stacey that was looking at kits recently, but he’s now got the same Fire marshall 4.0 kit I have J

That kit would go very nicely in your TT though!
**** my bad! :shrug:

Yeah that's what i'm thinking, it looks like a good enough kit! Are they easy enough to install?
 
I guess you're not really wanting to look into custom wishbones, or see if there's another hub (less likely) that'd give a little more track width? That way you'd have the additional camber you're after without losing caster angle and retain the stock top mount config. Obviously you'd still have the compound adjustment at the top, rather than independent cabmer/caster though.

Seen Max on the TT forum running a tubular subframe built by these guys, the wishbones wouldn't be a terrible price if shipping wasn't horrific!

http://www.fmfabrication.ca/apps/webstore/products/show/6261325

Edit: Canadian dollars so about £250 + Shipping!
 
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Yeah good question! What would be the advantage of being able to lower the subframe by 1"? Just weight distribution?

I'm gunna contact them to make sure the wishbones are compatible with OEM subframe too!
 
Would just seem to make sense to add the adjustment at the bottom end rather than modifying the strut towers.

With regards to the subframe above, they seem to have kept the stock configuration in terms of how the wishbones mount to it. I'd have thought it would have been an idea to make the rear bolt sit in the same plane as the front such that the whole wishbone is rotating around the bolt, rather than relying on flex in it as the suspension moves through its travel. Am I missing a good reason that this wouldn't be a benefit?
 
Would just seem to make sense to add the adjustment at the bottom end rather than modifying the strut towers.

With regards to the subframe above, they seem to have kept the stock configuration in terms of how the wishbones mount to it. I'd have thought it would have been an idea to make the rear bolt sit in the same plane as the front such that the whole wishbone is rotating around the bolt, rather than relying on flex in it as the suspension moves through its travel. Am I missing a good reason that this wouldn't be a benefit?
They look like a good bit of kit, more adjustment & saving 2.7kg a side!!

With a set of modified Mk2 TT ball joints you might even grab an extra 2deg of camber!
 
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With a set of modified Mk2 TT ball joints you might even grab an extra 2deg of camber!

How have I never heard of this mk2 TT ball joint idea!?!?

Thanks for mentioning it! A quick Google reveals this on the TT forum:

TT%2BMk2%2BBall%2BJoint%2BMods%2BLR.jpg


Apparently they give an additional 0.7 degrees of negative camber, Pretty much exactly what I'm looking for to get me towards the 3 degrees I'd like!

Will order a set tomorrow seeing as GSF are doing 35% off this weekend :racer:
 
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Very, VERY useful input!

I love my Silver Project mounts I have at the mo. They transformed the front end, and have been great for me for over 3 years now. I simply feel I now need a little more.

Perhaps if I can gain a few mm at the top with a die grinder, and 0.7 at the bottom I'll be able to comfortably reach the 3 degrees I'd ideally like for use with slicks.

Thanks again! Great info :)
 
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Make sure you mod the hole in the right place though - the pic above wouldn't give max camber
 
Nick to be honest if you fit stiffer springs you'll reduce body roll and maintain better dynamic camber even as the steering angle changes.

The dynamic camber is what matters!

Stock A3/mk4 suspension geometry is that bad that under heavy body roll it actually goes to positive camber.... TT/S3 geometry is considerably more optimum for spirited driving.

Since you street drive the car consumable spherical bearing may not be desirable.
 
Forgetting the looks getting the suspension set up optimally geometrically may mean changing ride height (roll centre), unless you have access to fancy computer programs its trial and error I guess.

Also have you looked at the rear beam more?

For inspiration Shine used to do the insert that you drilled into it to stiffen it (there's another version available now) or VW motorsport did a triangulated version for more stiffness.
 
Slightly off topic, I've been going through your thread, was on a page in the mid 80s and you mentioned you had brake cooling issues, did this get resolved?

I saw you had fitted some cooling ducts, just thought I'd mention that audi TT RS cooling ducts fit, not tested on track but as it's an OEM part I'm sure they'll do something. Got them on mine.
 
Oooo you know of them?

do you run any of their products by any chance?

Only from messaging via email.

Plans are to run the subframe and arms, was supposed to be getting them last year but money situations changed, also been discussing some mk1 golf bits for the other car on the team these included some wider track arms.
 
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Very, VERY useful input!

I love my Silver Project mounts I have at the mo. They transformed the front end, and have been great for me for over 3 years now. I simply feel I now need a little more.

Perhaps if I can gain a few mm at the top with a die grinder, and 0.7 at the bottom I'll be able to comfortably reach the 3 degrees I'd ideally like for use with slicks.

Thanks again! Great info :)
sort your spring rates out first dude
 
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Nick to be honest if you fit stiffer springs you'll reduce body roll and maintain better dynamic camber even as the steering angle changes.

The dynamic camber is what matters!

Stock A3/mk4 suspension geometry is that bad that under heavy body roll it actually goes to positive camber.... TT/S3 geometry is considerably more optimum for spirited driving.

Since you street drive the car consumable spherical bearing may not be desirable.



Hi Ant, I am very interested in your comments regarding our build.

What is your background in building, experience, and track successes. Do you own, and have built a high end track car.
 
Hi Ant, I am very interested in your comments regarding our build.

What is your background in building, experience, and track successes. Do you own, and have built a high end track car.

Unfortunately not, funds do not allow this.
I just read this article and the graphs explain a lot regarding the VAG A4 platform geometry

http://audittmk1.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/tt-suspension-geometry-analysis-how-bad.html?m=1

I just enjoy all things with engines, engineering and the physics to make them go faster.
 
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Good article Ant, I think i read it about 5 years ago when we first swapped to TT arms and hubs, but well worth reading again for anyone who's not read it before :racer:
 
it's a shame there aren't more currently available options for better uprights really. Cupra Cup car ones are rare as hens teeth, and I'm not sure USRT ever actually released the roll centre correction kits that have been spoken about for so long
 
i run these ball joints on mine. not really out of choice. I ordered new wishbones and for some reason they came with these ball joints on. i thought it was slightly strange as the bolt holes are elongated to allow slight adjustment. not had any issues since fitting them 18 months ago.

How have I never heard of this mk2 TT ball joint idea!?!?

Thanks for mentioning it! A quick Google reveals this on the TT forum:

TT%2BMk2%2BBall%2BJoint%2BMods%2BLR.jpg


Apparently they give an additional 0.7 degrees of negative camber, Pretty much exactly what I'm looking for to get me towards the 3 degrees I'd like!

Will order a set tomorrow seeing as GSF are doing 35% off this weekend :racer:
 
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Good article Ant, I think i read it about 5 years ago when we first swapped to TT arms and hubs, but well worth reading again for anyone who's not read it before :racer:

The point I took from it is the same Bill aluded too.
The graph showing camber at 10 degrees steering angle versus body roll.
The stock TT with static camber of -2.2 goes into positive camber at ~ 2.5 degrees of body roll (obvious when you think about it). Stiffer springs minimising body roll = better dynamic camber characteristics.


And to your point of basic underfloor aero, I wholeheartedly agree. When we went the ring we always stayed at the same apartments in Adenau overlooking the track run by some Russian mobsters. The quickest cornerning street cars I ever saw was a mini with K20 engine (light as anything) and the Megane 225's with their basic rear diffusers, nothing else came close.
Yes it's definitely interesting to see how much it helps you on track!
 
That's pretty interesting, in that with steering angle considered it’s not directly related because caster is working there too.

It also means that the curve is very specific to stock caster, so would need re-writing totally for anything with increased caster.

In terms of body roll, you’re definitely correct about the static camber vs dynamic camber, but I don’t think the figures are as high as suggested.

If we were to assume 100mm of body roll, 50mm compression on the outside and 50mm extension on the inside, that would equate to just 3.4 degrees body roll (on a 1700mm track width)

I’ve looked at a few pics, and I don’t believe the roll to be anywhere close to 100mm total,


This is the outside under heavy compression:




I’d say maybe 20-25mm max compression occurring there.

This pic of the inside on a fast (85+ bend at Bedford)



Maybe 10-15mm extension? Hard to say.

Finally this front on:



Static splitter height is around 60mm on those tyres, so looking at the level of compression / extension across the car, I’d say the above combined estimate of ~40-50mm roll is fairly accurate.

Assuming the upper end, and 50mm roll across the body, that’s still just 1.7 degrees of roll, so at worst case I’d remain 0.5 to the positive, that’s not allowing for the 9.5 degrees of caster I run either, which will keep again keep it more negative under steering angle than the stock 7 degrees.

Bodyroll has never been an issue, or the reason for wanting to change spring rates, as I feel the ARB’s control Body roll very well, or as is closer to the truth, they control it better than they should, because they’re making up for springs that are too soft. It’s pitching that is the issue with the soft springs.

I absolutely know I need stiffer springs, and will be trying some this year, I was just pleased to find that an additional 0.7 degrees of static camber is available so easily to get closer to the ball park ideal range PRE adjustment via the top mounts :)


Too many plans, and not enough time or money to implement even half of them :laugh:
 
You can always stick your iphone in a windscreen phone holder and see how many degrees the car leans under "testing" conditions :whistle2:
 
Well written and explained. Theory and practice don't always match, as proved with our car. The cornering ability at the moment is staggering, with the current geo.(assuming of course that one can drive). Just as Bill has stated with tuning, there are so many parameters involved and there is no stock solution. A rolling road is needed for tuning and a track session is needed for suspension appraisal. With reference to the last picture I can vouch that the cornering speed was approx 80 mph. I had not been in the car for many months and it took a while to get used to the cars ability. If you look back at Curborough and the chicane at Goodwood, there is very little body roll considering the speed involved.
 
I think this is potentially a failing within the vag suspension tuning approach on the whole.

The accepted norm seems to be a softer sprung setup, which is good to retain ride comfort, then larger arbs to control body roll, which also seems to work, but the detriment as I've found is a tendency to dive heavily under braking and squat under acceleration.

I'm sure the same level of body control could be achieved with stiffer springs and softer arbs, and that would address the dive issue also.

springs are definitely fairly high on the priority list this year, it's just a case of deciding what rates to go with front vs rear, and how stiff to go baring in mind the dampers will have a limit to their efficiency range also.
 

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