1.8 N/A cams in a 1.8t?

[<tuffty/>]

I dont know how much relevance this has but anyone tried adjustable vernier pulleys ?

Bill has one on his Ibiza engine... but also runs cat cams...

there are some cams that have adjustable chain drive pulleys too... I have seen these come loose...

<tuffty/>

 

[BENJAMIN]

​What horsepower is the car delivering currently? Why is the customer making this change?

Unknown, but I'd imagine in the 320bhp-330bhp region. Curiosity, I said I'd fit it foc as I too am intrigued

 

[slappy_dunbar]

I dont know how much relevance this has but anyone tried adjustable vernier pulleys ?

Before testing any new cams, this adjustable gear will go on the car.

 

[BENJAMIN]

So.....
picked up an inlet cam from an A4 with the ADR engine from the scrapyard this morning, £10- bargain!

Swapped into the APY S3 I mentioned above, complete straight fit, no piston/valve interference.
Logging showed a repeatable 6-7 g/s more than previous, the c/f had dropped from the previous logs so extra timing was added (this may be due to the colder weather today) , this contributed to an overall gain of around 8-10g/s. The owner commented on how the car felt more 'perky' off boost which is excellent.
So for the silly cheap cost of it, it would seem its well worth doing.

Side by side you can see the difference is fairly substantial in terms of lift and duration....
Left-APY right-ADR

 

[superkarl]

looks like this will be the next big thing then.
did you have it on a dyno?

 

[Dani_B19]

Me wanty haha. What about the exhaust cam?

 

[IrishDave]

Can this be fitted into a BAM engine or not cause of the vvt

 

[slappy_dunbar]

Benjamin -- you're killing me over here. Didn't you put a calipers on that cam to see what the lift was? Because my EuroSpec-sourced ADR cam has 8.25mm lift. This is shy of their published specs but jives nicely with the dimensions for Integrated Engineering's "Street" cam and the CatCams 3651.

More importantly, though, is the lobe separation angle. As noted earlier in the thread, overlap between exhaust and intake is good only for big turbos. And to those who worry about VVT compatibility: don't. These OEM cams are fine on such cars. In fact they're better-suited than any aftermarket design I've seen.

 

[BENJAMIN]

Benjamin -- you're killing me over here. Didn't you put a calipers on that cam to see what the lift was? Because my EuroSpec-sourced ADR cam has 8.25mm lift. This is shy of their published specs but jives nicely with the dimensions for Integrated Engineering's "Street" cam and the CatCams 3651.

More importantly, though, is the lobe separation angle. As noted earlier in the thread, overlap between exhaust and intake is good only for big turbos. And to those who worry about VVT compatibility: don't. These OEM cams are fine on such cars. In fact they're better-suited than any aftermarket design I've seen.

Im going to grab another next Saturday do I shall be sure to have a measure up- just for you!

The ADR this came out of is equipped with vvt and the apy it was fitted to didn't, no issue this way round either.

If these cams measure up to your liking I'm more than happy to send you a load of them as they're so common here.

 

[murran]

interesting stuff.
i once fitted a kent cam in my '87 k-jet mk2 golf gti. made a good few more bhp!
i also had a 1.6 carb engined '90 driver at the same time.... anyhoo i put the old cam out of gti in it. that made a noticeable gain too!

also heard of similar stuff as what your trying with earlier audis/vw. nice gains to be had from fitting the 9a inlet cam in a kr engine. etc etc.

 

[Westy]

Very interesting stuff guys. I wish more info on this was available when I rebuilt my head a few months ago.

Is there any difference between any of the 1.8t cams too or are all those identicle?

 

[future]

Very interesting stuff guys. I wish more info on this was available when I rebuilt my head a few months ago.

Is there any difference between any of the 1.8t cams too or are all those identicle?

All the 1.8t cams are identical mate

 

[aragorn]

Given the number of different cams available (3 different ADR cams for instance...) this sort of testing really needs to be accompanied with actual part numbers of the cams used.

Given the ADR had VVT, its likely that it was a "K" cam, but it would be good to be sure.

 

[afcbjoshd]

really interesting stuff, will be great to see any further investigation into it with dyno proven results etc.

 

[Westy]

really interesting stuff, will be great to see any further investigation into it with dyno proven results etc.

I'm not too sure whether this mod will yield much on a dyno. I expect it will alter the characteristics of the car off boost as opposed to adding significant gains.

 

[badger5]

if someone wants to furnish the cams & healthy test car I will do the tests to confirm fact from fiction

 

[afcbjoshd]

I'm not too sure whether this mod will yield much on a dyno. I expect it will alter the characteristics of the car off boost as opposed to adding significant gains.

ah right, so does this mean potentially less turbo lag etc?

 

[aragorn]

an NA cam will in general terms, typically move the powerband upwards slightly.

Theres a 1.8 NA cam on ebay just now for £25 if someone wants to have a go:

Audi A4 b5, 1.8 petrol, inlet camshaft | eBay

 

[Westy]

ah right, so does this mean potentially less turbo lag etc?

From what i've heard it makes the car slightly livelier off boost.

 

[Reesy]

Was meant to be doing this last weekend, but the rain put pay to that. According to a friend of a friend who did it, it made the car more driveable off boost. I'll be doing the change in the next few weeks and will report back.

 

[aragorn]

Reesy: make sure you document which cam you use!

 

[Westy]

Reesy: make sure you document which cam you use!

And get before and after logs and dyno.

Log like a crazy logging machine:

 

[slappy_dunbar]

Done some testing with NA cams over here now. So far they're proving a disappointment -- at least at the ~200g/s power range most of you guys inhabit. Yes, I've logged. And dynoed. EGTs are a bit down thanks to the exhaust cam, but power levels are unchanged. I reckon any benefit these offer will emerge only at high boost and hp.

 

[superkarl]

surely egts being lower is a great thing on these cars with stock turbos that tend to see high temps.
no increase in airflow woth the intake cam then?
what about off boost driveability like has been reported here?

 

[slappy_dunbar]

Who opens their wallet for off-boost drivability? Heck, even better EGTs are a non-starter for most folks.

 

[BuuBBa]

So what "revision" cams You tried slappy_dunbar? Would You try with mixed NA in or ex and turbo in or ex cams?

 

[slappy_dunbar]

I'm going to present info in a backwards fashion from how I'd planned. That's because I installed cams before getting profile info from a test lab. The hardware in question would be described:

• Stock turbo intake cam (7.6mm peak lift/ 190˚ @ .04)
• Stock turbo exhaust cam (9.3mm peak lift / 210˚ @ .04)
• Naturally aspirated intake cam (8.4mm peak lift / 210˚ @ .04)
• Naturally aspirated exhaust cam (10.2mm peak lift / 210˚ @ .04)

The test car had the N75 valve unplugged, so boost was regulated purely by the turbo's actuator. All runs were performed on the dyno same-day in the same (lousy, hot) test conditions.

If you gents want to see the dyno graphs I can get my hands on them. But they're indistinguishable from one another. 224-228 hp to the front wheels in all runs.

I haven't given up just yet, though. I am curious to experiment with the N/A units at a wider lobe separation. On cars with VVT, this might allow higher top-end boost without the penalty of exhaust gas reversion into the intake flow. That's the purpose of further testing.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Nice work Doug

Would be interesting to see if these are any benefit to a bigger turbo setup...

<tuffty/>

 

[Hammy999]

an NA cam will in general terms, typically move the powerband upwards slightly.

Theres a 1.8 NA cam on ebay just now for £25 if someone wants to have a go:

Audi A4 b5, 1.8 petrol, inlet camshaft | eBay

Is this the same as the ADR cam Benjamin used or completely different ?

 

[superkarl]

doug, will you try: N/A intake - stock exhaust?

 

[slappy_dunbar]

With such a similarity between the stock intake and NA intake, shown here...



...I don't see any point in re-doing it with a "lesser" exhaust cam.

 

[slappy_dunbar]

I know I've sounded a bit like an Eeyore with the naturally-aspirate camshafts, but I'm still experimenting with them. I've just received "Cam Analyzer" reports back for the exhaust side. The data show how the NA compares to the stock 1.8T, as well as how it stacks up to the exhaust cam in the 30v V6 motors. Just as I'd anticipated, the NA is a virtual match to the one used in its bigger cousin.

NOTE: the NA cam I tested is one I sourced new through one of my suppliers. This is not a scrapyard find. But I reckon it is basically the same as what you guys over there can find out of an old motor.

 

[badger5]

did you have data (nice graph) of 20v intake cams?

 

[slappy_dunbar]

Sorry. Forgot to mention my next steps: an intake cam measure-o-rama.

• 1.8T
• 1.8L (from my source)
• EuroSpec 210
• AutoTech 195
• Integrated Engineering "street"

The specs for the latter cam I will not make public. I expect IE would want to keep that proprietary.

 

[Hammy999]

I have an ADR one that I am going to try when the new head is ready the measurements show it has 0.6 mm greater lift/ profile than the standard one will let you know how it goes.

 

[slappy_dunbar]

I spoke with the owner of Delta Camshafts today. He described the N/A - type cam as "significantly better" for a high-boost, small turbo application. So it sounds like I need to keep digging. Perhaps the benefits will start to emerge as I raise the boost pressure above ~10psi.

 

[Westy]

I spoke with the owner of Delta Camshafts today. He described the N/A - type cam as "significantly better" for a high-boost, small turbo application. So it sounds like I need to keep digging. Perhaps the benefits will start to emerge as I raise the boost pressure above ~10psi.

Oooo now I'm interested

 

[Hammy999]

That is promising news.

 

[slappy_dunbar]

Another small correction to my earlier posts: it turns out the test car's VVT solenoid was NOT working properly when running the NA cams. If you look again at the airflow graphs you can see it:

The N/A cams were doggy in airflow for the majority of the run. Now I recognize that's owing to a locked-down VVT solenoid during the runs. The test car is now working with a prototype set, ones which closely match your junkyard NA parts, but which even more closely match those for the RennSport RS4. Have a look-see:

Airflows on actuator pressure (~10psi at redline) are above 225g/s. That's a good start!

 

[s3dave]

Promising findings Doug... :icon_thumright: