3.0 TDi death rattle on start up

[martynash]

Audi A4 Avant 3.0 TDi Tiptronic Quattro 75k 2006

I have owned the car for about 2 months and am generally very pleased with it.
Until a friend of mine pointed this out I hadn't noticed it but when starting from cold and occasionally when hot, upon starting there is a rattle like the starter hanging on or oil pressure trying to catch up. It lasts for no more than 2 seconds each time but doesn't do it every time.
The car has just been serviced with genuine filters and oil etc.and MOT'd yesterday with no comments or suggested repairs necessary. Admittedly I hadn't noticed before the service and therefore never mentioned it. There doesn't seem to be a connection between the noise and the oil light as the oil light goes out immediately.
Has anyone else experienced this or heard it on another vehicle or is there a commonality with this issue?
I look forward to any expert comments.

Thanks

Marty

 

[rizzini7]

Check out "phew, that's a relief!" further down the threads. And I've changed the top two tensioners on mine. There's also a couple of more threads kicking about. Usually appears to be more of an issue on the 3.2 petrols like mine

 

[jdp1962]

I was about to steer Marty in the same direction as you, Rizzini.

 

[Craig Cull]

My 2.0tfsi does exactly the same until the oil pressure builds up. I've changed the chain and tensioner and it still does it. I wouldn't worry about it tbh. Any car will sound crap from cold when all the oil is sat in the sump

 

[rizzini7]

Get it checked if you're concerned. One of my tensioners fell apart when removed. Although it was making more than just a rattle on start up. Was full on grating noise

 

[martynash]

Thanks Rizz
I have ordered the lock up tool and was going to replace both on Saturday with the help of the post mentioned above.
When you replaced yours, did it cure the rattle?

Thanks for your help
Marty

 

[Mr-C]

Mine does it but never from cold! but occasionally when its warm and been stood for say 10 minutes. Except I could describe mine as a 1 second clatter then nothing for a second then another 1 second clatter. The rattle/clatter is constantly the same but it does it intermittently.

 

[EddyP]

Mine does it but never from cold! but occasionally when its warm and been stood for say 10 minutes. Except I could describe mine as a 1 second clatter then nothing for a second then another 1 second clatter. The rattle/clatter is constantly the same but it does it intermittently.

It'll get worse with time, you'll have to do it before too long.

 

[rizzini7]

Obviously mines a petrol, But sorted the noises I was having. Still get a bit of a rattling sound. But this could be down to the injectors and chains. But it was checked when my mate changed them and the timing etc has all been checked and was fine.

 

[A4_MaJiK]

Thanks Rizz
I have ordered the lock up tool and was going to replace both on Saturday with the help of the post mentioned above.
When you replaced yours, did it cure the rattle?

Thanks for your help
Marty

Let us know how you get on as I'm thinking of giving it a go.

Azeem.

 

[martynash]

Let us know how you get on as I'm thinking of giving it a go.

Azeem.

Just completed the replacement of the right hand tensioner.
Started 8am this morning, went straight to the cafe had a huge breakfast and then got down to it.

Removed all necessary bits in the way and the cam chain cover to expose the tensioner. The chain was already floppy and the tensioner could be manually pushed back very easily, which indicated an issue. In "phew that's a relief" he recommends purchasing a lock up set for cam timing, which I did get. Once locked the replacement is very straight forward. Care must be taken not to drop any bolts or gasket residue into the engine but relatively easy.

Put it all back together and started her up, knowing it would growl the first time not having any oil in the new tensioner. Same noise as previously which went after 2-3 seconds again as before. Turned it off and left it for 20-30 minutes or so, started it again.......perfect. I have tried it perhaps 5-10 times since and no more death rattle....Hoorah

Audi want silly money to do this job, so I am very grateful for the help and advice I have been given in this forum.
Thank you to all who have helped.

All the very best
Marty She rides again....only quietly

 

[rizzini7]

Nice work mate

 

[desertstorm]

Top job, when you can do something like this yourself and it works you not only get the satisfaction of a good job but the money in your pocket. A lot of people would probably try and ignore it and then be suprised when the engine throws a timing chain, It's definately the right thing to do fixing an issue rather than hoping it will go away.

Karl.

 

[martynash]

Nice work mate

Thanks Rizz

All the best

Marty

 

[martynash]

Top job, when you can do something like this yourself and it works you not only get the satisfaction of a good job but the money in your pocket. A lot of people would probably try and ignore it and then be suprised when the engine throws a timing chain, It's definately the right thing to do fixing an issue rather than hoping it will go away.

Karl.

Hi Karl

Thanks for your support.
What with the breakfast as well, a good day all in all. Shame the tensioner was £140+ the dreaded.
As my old Dad used to say, " You can fix anything if you know how it works" well he was right as usual and I knew how it worked with help from the forum. Win Win I believe? Miss you Dad

Cheers

Marty

 

[Mr-C]

Well I was ready to order a tensioner this week and crack on myself. However today driving down the motorway I gets a sudden drop in power, as if its running on say 4 cylinders. Im only about 3 miles from home and at normal low revs its on, The car is running rough seems like it has a misfire when you rev it. I wonder if the tensioner has properly given up the ghost.

Once it stops raining I will do a video.

 

[joinerman]

Martynash wrote Quote Just completed the replacement of the right hand tensioner.

Is that the right side standing facing the front of the car, ie kerb side

 

[rizzini7]

Well I was ready to order a tensioner this week and crack on myself. However today driving down the motorway I gets a sudden drop in power, as if its running on say 4 cylinders. Im only about 3 miles from home and at normal low revs its on, The car is running rough seems like it has a misfire when you rev it. I wonder if the tensioner has properly given up the ghost.

Once it stops raining I will do a video.

Hope it's not serious mate

 

[martynash]

Well I was ready to order a tensioner this week and crack on myself. However today driving down the motorway I gets a sudden drop in power, as if its running on say 4 cylinders. Im only about 3 miles from home and at normal low revs its on, The car is running rough seems like it has a misfire when you rev it. I wonder if the tensioner has properly given up the ghost.

Once it stops raining I will do a video.

Hi Mr C
I hope its an injector gone down for you as the chain slipping or moving would be a nightmare.
Has the sound of the engine changed? More rattly or growly? coz if not I would think it unlikely to be chain or tensioner. If the tensioner broke up, the noise would be awful and probably cause the engine to detonate, so I think that's unlikely.
I would be interested to know what you find when you look at it.
Good luck

Marty

 

[martynash]

Martynash wrote Quote Just completed the replacement of the right hand tensioner.

Is that the right side standing facing the front of the car, ie kerb side

Hi Joinerman

Bear in mind the cam-chain and tensioners are at the back of the engine between the engine and gearbox. (Good idea that!!) so it's when you sit in the drivers seat. Right hand tensioner is the offside and the left hand tensioner is on the nearside. Both tensioners have a different part number so they are handed.
Good luck
Regards

Marty

 

[Mr-C]

Hi Mr C
I hope its an injector gone down for you as the chain slipping or moving would be a nightmare.
Has the sound of the engine changed? More rattly or growly? coz if not I would think it unlikely to be chain or tensioner. If the tensioner broke up, the noise would be awful and probably cause the engine to detonate, so I think that's unlikely.
I would be interested to know what you find when you look at it.
Good luck

Marty

Here you go I made a little video. Strangley I didnt get the start up rattle this morning! But I never did get it when the engine was cold.
You cant hear any chain rattle at all today but you cant hear the knocking noise when rev'd which is more obvious in the 2nd part of the video

 

[Mr-C]

Just had my mate up who is a mechanic and between us we can not pin point the source of the noise, although it does start tapping/knocking at just below 2k rpm. Still no rattle on start up!!!

Dual mass???

 

[martynash]

Just had my mate up who is a mechanic and between us we can not pin point the source of the noise, although it does start tapping/knocking at just below 2k rpm. Still no rattle on start up!!!

Dual mass???

Mmmm. How many miles has the car done? Doesn't sound like it's miss-firing but then driving it would be very different under load.
To eliminate the possibility of the dual mass making a noise put your foot on the clutch. If the noise changes then it could be dual mass. If you raise the clutch to bite point but remain stationary, all the drive train including the dual mass will be gripped (wound up) and therefore most noises relating to that will go quiet.
Have you changed oil regularly and used correct grade good quality etc?
If it's any consolation, it doesn't sound like there's any growl like I had from the timing chain tensioner.
Let me know how you get on.

Cheers

Marty

 

[Mr-C]

Mmmm. How many miles has the car done? Doesn't sound like it's miss-firing but then driving it would be very different under load.
To eliminate the possibility of the dual mass making a noise put your foot on the clutch. If the noise changes then it could be dual mass. If you raise the clutch to bite point but remain stationary, all the drive train including the dual mass will be gripped (wound up) and therefore most noises relating to that will go quiet.
Have you changed oil regularly and used correct grade good quality etc?
If it's any consolation, it doesn't sound like there's any growl like I had from the timing chain tensioner.
Let me know how you get on.

Cheers

Marty

In that case defo not dual mass, All I can say is if I was to fire it up all is good untill say 1900 rpm. Engine managemnet light is on now so I guess that may well be a pointer.
BTW its a late 2007 120k always serviced with the good stuff. Looking on Google this is the closest thing I can find Audi Allroad 3.0Tdi engine trouble - PistonHeads

I may well start a new thread on this one.

 

[EddyP]

Maybe injector noise?

In the Audi technical bulletin which some people have posted the contents of online where they suggest the change of the RH bank tensioner, it talks in detail about checking if it's injector noise first, apparently they make a very similar noise, so with the noise you've got and then the power issues perhaps it's not the cam chain tensioner at all?


Marty - Glad you got yours sorted, such a relief for there to be no rattle eh?

Perhaps no someone else has done it to it might give others a boost to give it a go rather than paying up loads of money to get it done.

 

[Mr-C]

Would a duff injector not cause excessive smoke?

 

[jdp1962]

Maybe injector noise?

In the Audi technical bulletin which some people have posted the contents of online where they suggest the change of the RH bank tensioner, it talks in detail about checking if it's injector noise first, apparently they make a very similar noise, so with the noise you've got and then the power issues perhaps it's not the cam chain tensioner at all?


Marty - Glad you got yours sorted, such a relief for there to be no rattle eh?

Perhaps no someone else has done it to it might give others a boost to give it a go rather than paying up loads of money to get it done.

Massive respect to Marty, but no way will I ever attempt something like that. I am the most unmechanical, fumble-fingered numpty in Christendom.

 

[martynash]

In that case defo not dual mass, All I can say is if I was to fire it up all is good untill say 1900 rpm. Engine managemnet light is on now so I guess that may well be a pointer.
BTW its a late 2007 120k always serviced with the good stuff. Looking on Google this is the closest thing I can find Audi Allroad 3.0Tdi engine trouble - PistonHeads

I may well start a new thread on this one.

Thanks for getting back to me.
Reading the Pistonheads thread, I am amazed that they just want to rip the engine down. I was always taught that until you have pin pointed the fault do nothing. First we must establish what area of the engine the noise is coming from. I have and use regularly, a set of 5 microphones all attached to a unit that then has head phones attached to that. The unit has a selector switch that allows you to listen to each microphone individually. You place the mics strategically around the engine and listen to each. Obviously the loudest or most prominent is nearer the noise/damage and it homes you in on the problem. Once you know where about the sound is, it is far easier to ascertain what component may be at fault. This how I nailed the cam tensioner problem on mine. Generally I use the mics for suspension knocks and rattles but the same applies to the engine.. Try to find an old school Tech like me who cares about correcting the issue not making the money, because the money will come to you if you are good! Main dealers I have had the mis-fortune to work for in the past have this equipment but don't like to use it, so find an independent who cares and has the tools too.

I hope this has been of assistance to you and saved you from throwing bundles of cash at it. That is never the solution.

All the very best and keep in touch with your progress. If you start a thread lead me to it.

Regards

Marty

 

[martynash]

Would a duff injector not cause excessive smoke?

Not if it seals ok but is mechanically challenged!!

 

[Mr-C]

Thanks for getting back to me.
Reading the Pistonheads thread, I am amazed that they just want to rip the engine down. I was always taught that until you have pin pointed the fault do nothing. First we must establish what area of the engine the noise is coming from. I have and use regularly, a set of 5 microphones all attached to a unit that then has head phones attached to that. The unit has a selector switch that allows you to listen to each microphone individually. You place the mics strategically around the engine and listen to each. Obviously the loudest or most prominent is nearer the noise/damage and it homes you in on the problem. Once you know where about the sound is, it is far easier to ascertain what component may be at fault. This how I nailed the cam tensioner problem on mine. Generally I use the mics for suspension knocks and rattles but the same applies to the engine.. Try to find an old school Tech like me who cares about correcting the issue not making the money, because the money will come to you if you are good! Main dealers I have had the mis-fortune to work for in the past have this equipment but don't like to use it, so find an independent who cares and has the tools too.

I hope this has been of assistance to you and saved you from throwing bundles of cash at it. That is never the solution.

All the very best and keep in touch with your progress. If you start a thread lead me to it.

Regards

Marty

I'll be sticking a complete new lump in it before I went down that route

 

[Mr-C]

Slight up date, the engine management light fault showed up as the *Turbo there are no faults coming up regarding the timing! I guess that would make a little sense how the knocking only kicks in as the turbo spools up and the fact I have no power. Never heard of a turbo knocking though

*I don't know what the exact fault code.

 

[martynash]

Slight up date, the engine management light fault showed up as the *Turbo there are no faults coming up regarding the timing! I guess that would make a little sense how the knocking only kicks in as the turbo spools up and the fact I have no power. Never heard of a turbo knocking though

*I don't know what the exact fault code.

Well it sounds like you're getting closer. It was unlikely for a DTC code to point to camshaft or tensioner faults unless it had a cam sensor issue.
Were you able to hear the turbo spooling up before the motorway problem? Often they whistle before packing up.If there was no smoke, then the shaft of the turbo could have seized as opposed to the seals leaking. If the turbo stops spinning for whatever reason first thing that goes is any engine power as you described in an earlier post.
Obviously a turbo is expensive but at least it's relatively easy to get to and lots of places refurbish them quite reasonably these days.
If you have access to VCDS or a decent scanner you can easily monitor turbo boost pressure in "live readings". No boost pressure=turbo not spinning or waste-gate wide open.

By removing the top air hose between the turbo inlet and the air filter housing the inner compressor vane of the turbo can be clearly seen. Very very gently with the lightest of finger pressure you can turn the vane manually and feel for excessive end float in the shaft by putting your finger on the centre nut of the shaft and feeling for lateral movement but DO NOT apply any force though as this will cause damage, you are only feeling for play. It will take literally a couple of minutes to remove the hose. Worth a look for peace of mind at least.

Hope this helps

Regards

Marty

 

[Mr-C]

Bit more of an update. Fault code was showing a ****ed wastegate actuator which explains the lack of power. New actuator being fitted tomorrow.
Very bizzarly the tapping/knocking noise has gone!!! The garage owners son was at my house on Sunday afternoon so he knows im not going mad.
Im at a loss

 

[Mr-C]

Bit more of an update. Fault code was showing a ****ed wastegate actuator which explains the lack of power. New actuator being fitted tomorrow.
Very bizzarly the tapping/knocking noise has gone!!! The garage owners son was at my house on Sunday afternoon so he knows im not going mad.
Im at a loss

 

[martynash]

Bit more of an update. Fault code was showing a ****ed wastegate actuator which explains the lack of power. New actuator being fitted tomorrow.
Very bizzarly the tapping/knocking noise has gone!!! The garage owners son was at my house on Sunday afternoon so he knows im not going mad.
Im at a loss

Great news.
I suggest you buy a good quality engine flush follow the instructions on it and replace the oil and filter (Good quality oil only) while you are at it.
Loss of power was always going to be turbo related. Glad it was a cheaper bit. You can test the actuator with a hand pump vacuum tool or sometimes in VCDS via the "actuators" section. Once the old actuator is removed make sure the actual waste-gate mechanism in the turbo isn't seized in any way otherwise the new actuator will not last long and you will still have boost problems.

As a general rule and unlike most garages/mechanics, I have to prove the fault before any replacement takes place. Anyone can keep replacing things until the problem goes away but this is not the way to work. At least, not the way I work.

Good luck, let us know what the outcome and the costs are.

Cheers

Marty

 

[Mr-C]

As it happens I have just bought 8 litres of Castrol Edge ready for an service. It was on the long-life service plan but when I got the car (100k) I decided to do 10k intervals, now at 120k. As I do get a rattle (warm been stood for 20 mins) start ups I will get the tensioner done whilst they are at it