8V S3 Tuning Thread

[ConS3]

I'll happily wait as long as it takes because APR will supply the best remap solution and it will be via OBDII. The current tuning box solutions that are available are just a temporary workaround that have been commercialised.

Oh dear. Another person hit by the "APR is the best at everything" bug. There are a lot of tuners out in the world far better than APR, trust me on that. Look at what they currently produce and you'll find their intakes are VWR, their exhausts are (or were, I've read they make their own now) made by Billy Boat/Corsa, etc.

And sorry, although I've never had a tuning box, there's no way you can call them a temporary workaround. They've been around for a long time. Many people prefer them to flash tunes as doesn't leave as many traces in the ECU, and do perform quite well relative to their price (usually cheaper than flash tunes).

I fear I'm starting a war here now, but I get tired of hearing the pro APR stories. Based on my experiences, I'm never using them again. If I could give my money to a custom tuner, despite it costing twice the price, I would, rather than spend a cent with APR.

 

[pat15312]

It's your money, your choice. We'll see what the landscape is like in 12 months time.

 

[warren_S5]

Oh dear. Another person hit by the "APR is the best at everything" bug. There are a lot of tuners out in the world far better than APR, trust me on that. Look at what they currently produce and you'll find their intakes are VWR, their exhausts are (or were, I've read they make their own now) made by Billy Boat/Corsa, etc.

And sorry, although I've never had a tuning box, there's no way you can call them a temporary workaround. They've been around for a long time. Many people prefer them to flash tunes as doesn't leave as many traces in the ECU, and do perform quite well relative to their price (usually cheaper than flash tunes).

I fear I'm starting a war here now, but I get tired of hearing the pro APR stories. Based on my experiences, I'm never using them again. If I could give my money to a custom tuner, despite it costing twice the price, I would, rather than spend a cent with APR.

I'm with you on this; I think some of their products are great, but very often made by someone else (ITG / Carbonia come straight to mind), and there is a lot of spin, a lot of marketing and the aftercare can be SERIOUSLY lacking in European territory. When you see how they've up and moved sticks to Germany and have given very little communication to existing customers I think it speaks volumes. It's not just to satisfy the core German market, there is much more afoot there.

 

[ConS3]

I'm sure they make decent stuff. They've done a great job at building partnerships and deals with other vendors, and you can't knock them for that. It's just a good, smart business model. But for periods of time, both past and present, APR put no R&D into any of the items they sold. They simply signed an agreement with a vendor, branded the goods APR as it sells better, and reaped the rewards of making people think they're something that came from the heavens. If you're into tuning your car, and a real enthusiast of it, you should be looking past that and realize there's much more out there apart from APR. If you simply want to slap a tune in your car and tell your friends it's awesome and fast, and has 8000 gigawatts of torque and other go fast bits, sure, go with APR.

I can tell you the head distributor for them down here in Oz can only be described by words that will end up getting moderated if I type them out.

 

[geefunk1978]

Not when you could get 60-70 bhp for, I expect, less money just by waiting it out.

I seriously doubt you'll get those figures from a remap.

 

[pepperisback]

370hp via OBD from OCT Tuning...

 

[JoFa73]

Not when you could get 60-70 bhp for, I expect, less money just by waiting it out.

I seriously doubt you'll get those figures from a remap.

Most tuners MTM, ABT and siemoneit get 60-70bhp, both from remap or tuning boxes.

 

[warren_S5]

I'm still amazed after all these years people clammer after peak figures as if they're gospel.

Those figures may be peak spikes achieved in controlled environments and don't necessarily give any real world indication of how far from a service you are / what the ambient temperatures are like / how long your engine has been running (repeat runs / heatsoak etc.). I've seen cars run at Brunters claiming all sorts of 'interesting' BHP figures, then having their ***** handed to them by something claiming lower figures. Anyone can engineer a peak BHP spike, however this does not necessarily translate into sustainable / repeatable / consistent performance.

 

[ConS3]

Amen to that! And who knows what the outputs were dyno'd on. No two dynos are ever the same. I've literally seen up variations of +/- 30 hp on the same car between dynos. I know as it was mine!

+60 hp at 6000rpm isn't a very usable power band. Who sits on the red line constantly when driving their car?

 

[JoFa73]

I'm still amazed after all these years people clammer after peak figures as if they're gospel.

Those figures may be peak spikes achieved in controlled environments and don't necessarily give any real world indication of how far from a service you are / what the ambient temperatures are like / how long your engine has been running (repeat runs / heatsoak etc.). I've seen cars run at Brunters claiming all sorts of 'interesting' BHP figures, then having their ***** handed to them by something claiming lower figures. Anyone can engineer a peak BHP spike, however this does not necessarily translate into sustainable / repeatable / consistent performance.

No clinging to peak figures att all, just a reply to doubting this figures can be achived.

 

[warren_S5]

No clinging to peak figures att all, just a reply to doubting this figures can be achived.

Yes they can, for a split second of the torque curve, but it's largely pub talk, it's meaningless in the real world isn't it?

My concern is the consumer is blinded by numbers above all else, and this drives industry demand and the net result is it doesn't necessarily generate the best 'overall' product. Tuning houses aren't stupid, they can read forums and see what drives the majority of peoples motivations. I'd always buy based on three key factors:

1) firstly a trusted brand name (that isn't likely to go out of business in a couple of months)
2) the ability to demonstrate aftercare support in case I get into any non warranty issues
3) Compatibility with a planned upgrade path so I don't end up with lots of incompatible disparate bits and bobs (that I have no idea whether they compliment each other or not)

Choosing a remap based on highest figure is something I may have done 10+ years ago, but I've been bitten once too often by the claims of some of the protagonists in the tuning industry for that to be the best approach these days (especially now I'll be rolling up with a £50k car instead of a £20k one). Trust, reliability and sustainable performance is all I want, balls to everyone else's figures!!

 

[geefunk1978]

Amen to that. Sick of people just quoting max power figures. Anyone can print a figure on their website and if you're stupid enough to believe it then more fool you. Figures mean nothing, it's how it drives.

 

[stetheo]

Yes they can, for a split second of the torque curve, but it's largely pub talk, it's meaningless in the real world isn't it?

My concern is the consumer is blinded by numbers above all else, and this drives industry demand and the net result is it doesn't necessarily generate the best 'overall' product. Tuning houses aren't stupid, they can read forums and see what drives the majority of peoples motivations. I'd always buy based on three key factors:

1) firstly a trusted brand name (that isn't likely to go out of business in a couple of months)
2) the ability to demonstrate aftercare support in case I get into any non warranty issues
3) Compatibility with a planned upgrade path so I don't end up with lots of incompatible disparate bits and bobs (that I have no idea whether they compliment each other or not)

Choosing a remap based on highest figure is something I may have done 10+ years ago, but I've been bitten once too often by the claims of some of the protagonists in the tuning industry for that to be the best approach these days (especially now I'll be rolling up with a £50k car instead of a £20k one). Trust, reliability and sustainable performance is all I want, balls to everyone else's figures!!

This. I could not agree more.

I don't even know what my car is remapped to figures wise as it was all done on the road with no rolling road involved. All I know is it drives completely different to how it did, has more usable road power/torque/midrange which is all I wanted. I had people trying to tell me to get a slap on map, I decided to get a custom tune from someone who I know, trust and know if I had any issues I could go back to. I certainly don't regret it one bit.

I do however think the new tuning boxes for the 8V are great alternative for what they offer. Although you don't get the custom fine tuning of an OBD remap. You do however get a noted increase in torque and power which can be used on the road with no consequences on the ECU. In my eyes what's not to like.

 

[RobH_S3]

Let's not forget APR ditched the uk a few years ago when awesome gti suddenly started doing Revo software with the whole amnesty thing, and left people high and dry with their APR remaps.

The APR fanboys on SCN became extremely boring with their fanboy BS that literally everyone believes and you get shot down for saying anything else. The amount of people that have switched from Revo to APR on the back of that and claim an amazing difference makes me laugh. Yet stick it on a road side by side NO difference. There's people in there that think there running 390hp on stage 2+ yet never achieve anything different in terminal speeds on the 1/4 mile. Still maxing out at around 113-5mph. I did that on 4 year old Revo code with 40hp less (apperently). Same story with vbox times 100-200 no difference, you can believe the hype but at the end of the day there all working with the same hardware and all have competent software mappers so the likelihood of a massive difference between the top tuners is zero.

 

[warren_S5]

Let's not forget APR ditched the uk a few years ago when awesome gti suddenly started doing Revo software with the whole amnesty thing, and left people high and dry with their APR remaps.

The APR fanboys on SCN became extremely boring with their fanboy BS that literally everyone believes and you get shot down for saying anything else. The amount of people that have switched from Revo to APR on the back of that and claim an amazing difference makes me laugh. Yet stick it on a road side by side NO difference. There's people in there that think there running 390hp on stage 2+ yet never achieve anything different in terminal speeds on the 1/4 mile. Still maxing out at around 113-5mph. I did that on 4 year old Revo code with 40hp less (apperently). Same story with vbox times 100-200 no difference, you can believe the hype but at the end of the day there all working with the same hardware and all have competent software mappers so the likelihood of a massive difference between the top tuners is zero.

And ironically Awesome have just switched back to offer APR again now they've run off to Germany again.... how the tuning world works!

 

[veeeight]

Wow, what a lot of anti-APR feeling on this thread

Are we allowed to talk about Revo stealing the Intelectual Property of Brett Augsburger and APR on here?

<ducks>

 

[warren_S5]

Wow, what a lot of anti-APR feeling on this thread

Are we allowed to talk about Revo stealing the Intelectual Property of Brett Ausberger and APR on here?

<ducks>

Well what do you know, doesn't that always pop up at the moment when anyone questions APR's brilliance! I can see you've been given their usual sales pitch!

Go for your life, it's been discussed to death over the years, it's old news. Or we could look to the 'now' and look into the real reasons 'why' APR have moved from the UK to Germany, now that would be MUCH more interesting.... I can imagine there could be some skeletons in that closet.

I'm not having a go chap, as I've said I think they market some good hardware, there are all sorts of skeletons in all the tuning houses cupboards, some larger than others!

 

[veeeight]

Indeed. All come in waves, have peaks and troughs, and none of the big boys are necessarily squeaky clean.

No, no sales pitch, just readling lots of legal court cases etc. from the early days.

Personally (and you know this from my own research on turbocharging) - I dislike the way some of the big names achieve their figures through excessive turbo boost etc., and regarding compressor surge as "normal". Bleaurghhhh.

For me - it would be a custom map, everytime. With me keeping an eye on which parameters are changed, and to what degree. I've seen some outrageous tunes on maps.

 

[Silky-S3]

Wow, what a lot of anti-APR feeling on this thread

Are we allowed to talk about Revo stealing the Intelectual Property of Brett Augsburger and APR on here?

<ducks>

Lol, I was wondering how long it would take for this to come up!!!

 

[warren_S5]

Indeed. All come in waves, have peaks and troughs, and none of the big boys are necessarily squeaky clean.

No, no sales pitch, just readling lots of legal court cases etc. from the early days.

Totally agree. To be honest there are limits to what can be done with a bit of code (within safe parameters), and I bet if you were to scratch beneath the surface you'd find this kind of replication is rife. The motoring industry has pretty much always been a den of iniquity hasn't it?!

With the amount of ECU encryption and lock down we are seeing on the new vehicles I'm intrigued to see where the tuning market heads over the next 5 years. MTM's S3 8V Map is 1900 Euro so am I right in assuming that is a tuning box> (or is it a solder chip or straight map - seems expensive as it was a grand when I had mine on 8P2 car)?

 

[RobH_S3]

And ironically APR have just switched back to offer APR again now they've run off to Germany again.... how the tuning world works!

Eh try that again warren haha.

 

[warren_S5]

Eh try that again warren haha.

Whoops! Thanks, edited!

 

[ConS3]

MTM's S3 8V Map is 1900 Euro so am I right in assuming that is a tuning box> (or is it a solder chip or straight map - seems expensive as it was a grand when I had mine on 8P2 car)?

Yup. They're all tuning boxes. Even ABT.

 

[Vtec Abuser]

Let's not forget that there is also the re-sale option that a tuning box gives. So hypothetically let's say that a flash tune (when it arrives) is the same price as a tuning box. You won't get a bean back for the flash tune when you sell the car, but the box can be removed and sold on.
This wouldn't sway my decision on which route I personally would go, but it is worth taking into account.

Like Warren says, it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years with regards tuning. It's obviously apparent that tuning boxes are becoming more and more popular due to the limitations a flash tune now offers with things like ECU encryption and the TD1 flag. I have asked a few tuners who claim to have software for the 8v S3 available (or on the horizon) whether their tune is going to have any sort of invisibility for when the car visits a dealer (ie doesn't flag up instantly when plugged in)? None have replied to me with any sort of answer (including APR)..
I would ideally prefer a flash tune for my own car over a tuning box, but for the time being I won't be going anywhere near a flash tune whilst they are easily visible to the dealer. Plus some of the tuning boxes these days are just as safe, give similar power outputs and have even more features than flash tunes - just look at JB4 boxes for the BMW engines..

 

[warren_S5]

Let's not forget that there is also the re-sale option that a tuning box gives. So hypothetically let's say that a flash tune (when it arrives) is the same price as a tuning box. You won't get a bean back for the flash tune when you sell the car, but the box can be removed and sold on.
This wouldn't sway my decision on which route I personally would go, but it is worth taking into account.

Like Warren says, it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years with regards tuning. It's obviously apparent that tuning boxes are becoming more and more popular due to the limitations a flash tune now offers with things like ECU encryption and the TD1 flag. I have asked a few tuners who claim to have software for the 8v S3 available (or on the horizon) whether their tune is going to have any sort of invisibility for when the car visits a dealer (ie doesn't flag up instantly when plugged in)? None have replied to me with any sort of answer (including APR)..
I would ideally prefer a flash tune for my own car over a tuning box, but for the time being I won't be going anywhere near a flash tune whilst they are easily visible to the dealer. Plus some of the tuning boxes these days are just as safe, give similar power outputs and have even more features than flash tunes - just look at JB4 boxes for the BMW engines..

Hi Ben, long time no see. Have you got an S3 8V yet or is it on the horizon. Good to hear you're still out! Don't be a stranger!

 

[cuke2u]

Let's not forget that there is also the re-sale option that a tuning box gives. So hypothetically let's say that a flash tune (when it arrives) is the same price as a tuning box. You won't get a bean back for the flash tune when you sell the car, but the box can be removed and sold on...

You are though forgetting that there are devices, such as the bluefin, that allow you too flash your own ecu and then remove the flash whenever you wish to. They can be sold on also. Of course, with an Audi, you'd fall foul of the detection system until someone finds away around it, however they are fine for other vehicles that don't have the tamper proof ecu.

 

[RobH_S3]

If more tuning boxes were like the MTM box where you just plug in one wire and your good to go but without the crazy price tag with features like the jb4 then yeah I'd probably go with that.

Also for cars with additional hardware mods is a tuning box even relevant? You can't just take an exhaust and inter cooler off at the side of the road to protect warrenty. You may aswell go the whole hog and get a map (if there better).

Tbh Ben your highly unlikely to get any tuner to say there map is 100% invisible that's not going to happen, but I've herd it is possible if their clever and that TD1 doesn't just show up when they plug in at the dealers, they have to proactively look for it... Time will tell

So does anyone actually know why APR have moved to Germany?

 

[S3quatt]

Tell me about it might have to postpone till Friday as I've got to drive down to London on Wednesday and don't wanna be putting 400 motorway miles on as the first thing I do. But I really want the car... Decisions decisions.

Funny this, that was my plan when I finally pick mine up. Planned on a nice long run to try & bed it all in before any B road blasts...

 

[S3quatt]

I've polled Akrapovic and offered mine as a mule for a full system. Will advise on contact.

Cha-ching! You clearly have too much cash lol!

Should sound sweet & be a tidy weight saving too I imagine!

;-)

Regarding the speculation of tuners finding a way around flashing the ECU without leaving a trace, I don't see how that can be possible.
The ECU will register the flash when its re-programmed & register again when it's put back to standard.

I don't know if Audi look for this, but I know that Porsche do for sure.
I know someone who, despite having a car which was reverted back to standard still couldn't renew his warranty as the remaps were recorded regardless.

 

[RobH_S3]

Well the flash counter can be reset and if tuners use a file in the ECU that's not needed, re-write the software in that but don't change the file name then it can't be identified by Audis software. Audis software looks for new files which would be put there by the tuner.

TD1 is the name normally used by tuners for their software files hence why it's flagged a TD1 by Audi... So I'm told.

There's a lot of ****** on the internet regarding TD1... of course I might be adding to it here haha.

B8 & B8.5 S4's and S5's were the first cars with the td1 and now the tuners have found a way around that, well kind of, aslong as the standard map is loaded back on before it's taken in to the dealer then its undetectable. I think the ecu in the new S3 is from the same manufacturer simos??? so don't see why they cant do the same.

 

[tcardio]

I guess I'll wait for pigs to fly but I wonder if I will have any interest in tuning if the S3+ comes out with 375 horses. For me that's enough

 

[nervus]

I went MTM plug and play and easily removable as I want to retain my warranty. Once the warranty expires, I'll start with IC, Exhaust etc and a full custom re-map and hopefully sell MTM Cantronic on for some cashback.

The O.CT re-writes the ECU - no dealers in UK so you have to send your ECU to Austira. Costs around 1800Euros and is only available for manual cars! its a reflash rather than a tuning box.

I know my (manual) and another forum users (S-Tronic) cars have different ECU set-ups when fitting the MTM M-Cantronic. Manual cars have the ECU hidden in a tamper proof cage (which takes all of 5 mins to tamper with lol!) and the S-Tronic cars dont have this. Im guessing the ECU on S-tronics is maybe bigger as probably controls the gearbox - but just guessing!

 

[ConS3]

I went MTM plug and play and easily removable as I want to retain my warranty. Once the warranty expires, I'll start with IC, Exhaust etc and a full custom re-map and hopefully sell MTM Cantronic on for some cashback.

The O.CT re-writes the ECU - no dealers in UK so you have to send your ECU to Austira. Costs around 1800Euros and is only available for manual cars! its a reflash rather than a tuning box.

I know my (manual) and another forum users (S-Tronic) cars have different ECU set-ups when fitting the MTM M-Cantronic. Manual cars have the ECU hidden in a tamper proof cage (which takes all of 5 mins to tamper with lol!) and the S-Tronic cars dont have this. Im guessing the ECU on S-tronics is maybe bigger as probably controls the gearbox - but just guessing!

It's a bench tune, not a flash tune. The ECU has to be physically removed to write to it. Flash tunes go via the ODB port.

Being in Oz, there is zero chance of me removing my ECU and sending it to Austria, I can tell you that. I'd much rather a tuning box. I'm sure it's a good tune, but the logistics of it for me is a nightmare. That and I don't like bench tunes. If ever there was a tuning method that a dealer could pick up on, it's a bench tune, because you physically have to remove the ECU.

 

[Silky-S3]

I went MTM plug and play and easily removable as I want to retain my warranty. Once the warranty expires, I'll start with IC, Exhaust etc and a full custom re-map and hopefully sell MTM Cantronic on for some cashback.

The O.CT re-writes the ECU - no dealers in UK so you have to send your ECU to Austira. Costs around 1800Euros and is only available for manual cars! its a reflash rather than a tuning box.

I know my (manual) and another forum users (S-Tronic) cars have different ECU set-ups when fitting the MTM M-Cantronic. Manual cars have the ECU hidden in a tamper proof cage (which takes all of 5 mins to tamper with lol!) and the S-Tronic cars dont have this. Im guessing the ECU on S-tronics is maybe bigger as probably controls the gearbox - but just guessing!

Don't think it's bigger mate, just in a slightly different position (to make space for the gearbox), so no room to add the anti tamper box.

 

[Vtec Abuser]

Hi Ben, long time no see. Have you got an S3 8V yet or is it on the horizon. Good to hear you're still out! Don't be a stranger!

Hi Warren, hope you are well mate?

I will always frequent all the old forums from time to time for a catch up, you know that.. ha. I did have the 8v S3 on my (very) shortlist, but decided to defect to MB and go for the A45 in the end (boo hiss). However, I am always interested in seeing how the competition gets on with regards tuning and developments and I still have a lot of old mates from the VAG days too ;-)

When does the S5 rock up mate?

 

[S3Alex]

Wow, what a lot of anti-APR feeling on this thread

Are we allowed to talk about Revo stealing the Intelectual Property of Brett Augsburger and APR on here?

<ducks>

I wondered how long it would take the old "Tuner wars" to resurface.

The history between APR and Revo should be just that....history,as it's pretty well under the bridge by now.

What is perhaps more important is where the move to Germany leaves any potential UK market in terms of backup,and development.

Personally I'd be less than happy trying to get support from overseas,and the other point re:torque and bhp is also well made......when you stack up all of the products at a given level or stage,they're all pretty similar.

 

[ChinsTTS]

So without employing someone to decipher the whole thread and not having tweaked a car in the past 10 years. One simple question.

Are these piggyback tuning boxes totally undetectable ?

Great to see the same questions being raised about tuners so many years later . Wonder when I have grandchildren if the same APR vs Revo vs xxx will still be ongoing

 

[ChinsTTS]

Hi Warren, hope you are well mate?

decided to defect to MB and go for the A45 in the end (boo hiss).

My last ride never felt as fast as the figures suggest though. M135i always felt quicker in a straight line and would hurt it mid range.
Even had passengers say "its not as quick as your old Golf R!!" Good car for all that though. Bags of character

 

[veeeight]

Are these piggyback tuning boxes totally undetectable ?

I wouldn't say "totally". They are undetectable to the casual observer, or the average dealer.
However someone with more determination can always find traces (eg: long term trim figures etc.)

 

[Joetidman]

decided to defect to MB and go for the A45 in the end (boo hiss)

No one is perfect, regretting it yet?