BIL11 85 (mkII) 2022 RS3 8Y Build

Detail Devil

Registered User
Eventuri is waste (and a lot) of money for the tiny gain.

Stock air box is good for 600.

When I was using the Dyno Spectrum system the biggest restriction on the intake was the tiny turbo elbow / hard pipe.
I upgraded to the 4” Revo turbo elbow and 4” matching hard pipe, makes a big difference to flow into the turbo.


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Good to know and appreciate the heads up. I assume the 4in elbow and hard pipe then fit direct on to OEM air box? Any point fitting a K&N panel filter too?


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T-1000

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
Good to know and appreciate the heads up. I assume the 4in elbow and hard pipe then fit direct on to OEM air box? Any point fitting a K&N panel filter too?


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I bought the Revo carbon airbox cover.
Standard air filter is fine, fancy air filters don’t offer as good filtration.
f54bd1f6e598264f13d458ddf5801679.jpg



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Detail Devil

Registered User
I bought the Revo carbon airbox cover.
Standard air filter is fine, fancy air filters don’t offer as good filtration.
f54bd1f6e598264f13d458ddf5801679.jpg



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Ah nice! i like that and also the price too!!! So the 4in Elbow replaces the OEM restrictive Elbow yeah?
 

Detail Devil

Registered User
So you DID make additional gains


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T-1000

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
Torque curve seems a bit odd - what’s happening at 3400rpms?

It’s reached it’s peak torque. Graph is narrow which always makes the results look weird.

Earlier than the 17 Daza car too.

Here’s my standard one
2f2948ecb226397389ee436d421abe0c.jpg



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CarterRS

Registered User
My numbers don’t agree with yours…
When you do your reviews It comes across as if you think the people watching are idiots. You obviously need to be informative but you take it to the extreme. Look at most of the other you tubers doing reviews.

Most of the people who watch your rs3 videos have an interest In the new platform already. They want to hear how you think the car drives and how it feels not explaining little things that they already know.


Back on topic.... Great results Billy!
 

Terminator x

Registered User
After a dig around the web most think the VW platform transmission losses are around 18%

Roughly 343 wheel hp +18% on Billys car = 405 hp, where else did we see 405 hp ? :)
Even if power is the same or similar torque is well up on what Audi say both dyno's?

TX.

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Detail Devil

Registered User
When you do your reviews It comes across as if you think the people watching are idiots. You obviously need to be informative but you take it to the extreme. Look at most of the other you tubers doing reviews.

Most of the people who watch your rs3 videos have an interest In the new platform already. They want to hear how you think the car drives and how it feels not explaining little things that they already know.


Back on topic.... Great results Billy!

PMSL


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Doja cat

Well-Known Member
When you do your reviews It comes across as if you think the people watching are idiots. You obviously need to be informative but you take it to the extreme. Look at most of the other you tubers doing reviews.

Most of the people who watch your rs3 videos have an interest In the new platform already. They want to hear how you think the car drives and how it feels not explaining little things that they already know.


Back on topic.... Great results Billy!
I have to disagree there, he is not talking to the RS3 8Y sub forum of ASN, and you presume everyone knows all there is to know about the new RS3. The world is bigger you know, though some do think it revolves around them.
 
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HulkRS3

Kyalami RS3 Saloon
60bhp with a decat/opfs? I'm not sure about that tbh.
 

Detail Devil

Registered User
Sorry about the delays, the reason behind it was they where wanting to dyno a standard 8V OPF and get a good comparison. The reason being is your going to get real figures that way of comparing on the same dyno ect but they still haven’t been able to get hold of one. Would also make good content which would be great advertisement for him.

Didn’t expect it to take so long if I’m honest and they are still wanting to keep it hush till they do get it. I’ll not share the videos or graph pictures but I will tell you the numbers it made.

We done 2 runs.
1st run - 443.5bhp/532.5nm
2nd run - 449.1bhp/525.2nm

View attachment 247393

Original figures so additional 27 not 60hp


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Mike.46

Well-Known Member
It’s reached it’s peak torque. Graph is narrow which always makes the results look weird.

Earlier than the 17 Daza car too.

Here’s my standard one
2f2948ecb226397389ee436d421abe0c.jpg



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There you go, look at bottom left corner 327 whp, do the calculation for 18% transmission loss (327/82x100) and you get by absolute magic 398.7 hp :)

That I would say is an accurate, or as accurate as a chassis dyno can be, thanks for posting
 

Aoon_M

Registered User
Hi all!

Been a long, long time since I've been on the forum!

Wanted to talk about the dyno figures the car made, drivetrain losses and how the Maha dyno actually operates.

I dyno around 7-10 RS3' a week, their is never a point where we don't have a CZGB/DAZA/DNWA Engine based car all together at the same time in the workshop. I know what these cars make stock day in, day out and then tuned.

I am exceptionally proud of my MAHA MSR500 dyno facility, this is the same dyno used by ABT, Brabus, Lamborghini, the AMG Project One and many, many other car manufacturers.

The dyno measures the power of the car at the wheels (blue line on the graph), at the end of each pull the car is put into neutral and allowed to coast down and the dyno measures drivetrain loss aka drag (green line). Drivetrain losses are measured individually for every single dyno run. We do not just use a percentage as this is a joke method to calculate losses. This is the only accurate method to measure drivetrain losses as they can and do change each run due to hot vs cold tyres, hot vs cold drivetrain, tyre brands, tyre condition, alloy type, alloy weight, air pressure within the tyres, air temperature within the tyres, roller temperature, condition of the haldex and transfer box units themselves, status of the haldex on coast down (engaged vs non engaged), how tight the car has been strapped down to the dyno and so on. The dyno then adds the drag to the wheel power to get the figure at the crank. Once it gets the figure at the crank the data then gets corrected for ambient air temperature, air pressure and relative humidity then outputs the crank power (corrected) via the red line on the graph. Again this is done at the end of every single dyno run. The data is corrected using a method called DIN 70020 and both the corrected and uncorrected power is shown on the dyno graphs.

The car made 445hp/529nm in stock form. 460hp/562nm with the OPF and catalyst removed. As mentioned, I dyno so many RS3's that I can confirm the figures are more than accurate, DNWA cars in stock form make around 400-410hp. DAZA cars make up to 440hp in stock form.


Their are a million factors to consider when looking at a dyno graph with the main one being cooling and fuel. Was the car cooled sufficiently on the dyno? Was the load set up correctly? When intake air temperatures rise rapidly due to insufficient cooling the ecu pulls timing and lowers boost to stop the engine detonating. These are major factors and so important. We have the best available, 15kw fan to cool the cars down for the runs, I can't even stand infant of the fan without it blowing all 80kg of me clean away and even still the cars are cooled better on the road than on our dyno. Most dynos in the uk have little carpet driers at the front which are used for cooling, how these dyno are able to get anywhere close to an accurate reading of any car I don't know. Stick your hand out the window flat again the wind at 70mph for perspective.

I have an upcoming video talking about the differences and dyno test all three generations of RS3's and all 4 different engines 2016, 2018, 2019 and 2021. Stay tuned!
 

Aoon_M

Registered User
Here is a graph that compares the car with the off removed vs in stock form. Prime example of drivetrain losses being different. 94hp on the run when the opf was removed and 106hp in stock form.
Screenshot 2021-12-27 at 00.58.43.png
 

Doja cat

Well-Known Member
can you explain how a stock 450hp(claimed) car can "only" do the standing 1/4 in 12 sec, practically the same as the 8V FL which is just .2 better than the 8V PFL at best? and a 8V PFL stage 1 circa 445hp can do the 1/4m in 11.7. Why is that?
 

Aoon_M

Registered User
can you explain how a stock 450hp(claimed) car can "only" do the standing 1/4 in 12 sec, practically the same as the 8V FL which is just .2 better than the 8V PFL at best? and a 8V PFL stage 1 circa 445hp can do the 1/4m in 11.7. Why is that?



That I cannot answer, again so many factors. Was the car heat soaked? Was their 99 octane fuel in the tank? How much does that exact car weigh? What tyres? How much fuel in the tank? What was the road surface like? What was the weight of the driver? What was the ambient air temperature? What was the humidity?

A tuned 8V pfl also makes more torque and a more power under the curve than a stock fl 8v. My full weight RS3 pfl rs3 ran 11.3 with 480hp. This was a full weight car.

Everything is relative. You cannot compare numbers like that. I will give you a great example and something for you to take away, in the performance timing world we use the term "driver mod" where one driver is able to shave 3, 4 tenths of a second vs another drivers, sometimes even the owners performance draggy time. I will ask Billy if he wants the car timed for 100-200 times, this is a better performance calculation than 0-60 or 1/4 mile as their are far less variables.

One thing I do want to say is that this 8Y compared to 8v has larger brake discs at the front which will be heavier and this is rotating mass, heavier callipers, a lot of new assists inside the car, a lot of new tech, auto open/close boot etc. These things all add weight.
 

Detail Devil

Registered User
Hi all!

Been a long, long time since I've been on the forum!

Wanted to talk about the dyno figures the car made, drivetrain losses and how the Maha dyno actually operates.

I dyno around 7-10 RS3' a week, their is never a point where we don't have a CZGB/DAZA/DNWA Engine based car all together at the same time in the workshop. I know what these cars make stock day in, day out and then tuned.

I am exceptionally proud of my MAHA MSR500 dyno facility, this is the same dyno used by ABT, Brabus, Lamborghini, the AMG Project One and many, many other car manufacturers.

The dyno measures the power of the car at the wheels (blue line on the graph), at the end of each pull the car is put into neutral and allowed to coast down and the dyno measures drivetrain loss aka drag (green line). Drivetrain losses are measured individually for every single dyno run. We do not just use a percentage as this is a joke method to calculate losses. This is the only accurate method to measure drivetrain losses as they can and do change each run due to hot vs cold tyres, hot vs cold drivetrain, tyre brands, tyre condition, alloy type, alloy weight, air pressure within the tyres, air temperature within the tyres, roller temperature, condition of the haldex and transfer box units themselves, status of the haldex on coast down (engaged vs non engaged), how tight the car has been strapped down to the dyno and so on. The dyno then adds the drag to the wheel power to get the figure at the crank. Once it gets the figure at the crank the data then gets corrected for ambient air temperature, air pressure and relative humidity then outputs the crank power (corrected) via the red line on the graph. Again this is done at the end of every single dyno run. The data is corrected using a method called DIN 70020 and both the corrected and uncorrected power is shown on the dyno graphs.

The car made 445hp/529nm in stock form. 460hp/562nm with the OPF and catalyst removed. As mentioned, I dyno so many RS3's that I can confirm the figures are more than accurate, DNWA cars in stock form make around 400-410hp. DAZA cars make up to 440hp in stock form.


Their are a million factors to consider when looking at a dyno graph with the main one being cooling and fuel. Was the car cooled sufficiently on the dyno? Was the load set up correctly? When intake air temperatures rise rapidly due to insufficient cooling the ecu pulls timing and lowers boost to stop the engine detonating. These are major factors and so important. We have the best available, 15kw fan to cool the cars down for the runs, I can't even stand infant of the fan without it blowing all 80kg of me clean away and even still the cars are cooled better on the road than on our dyno. Most dynos in the uk have little carpet driers at the front which are used for cooling, how these dyno are able to get anywhere close to an accurate reading of any car I don't know. Stick your hand out the window flat again the wind at 70mph for perspective.

I have an upcoming video talking about the differences and dyno test all three generations of RS3's and all 4 different engines 2016, 2018, 2019 and 2021. Stay tuned!

Hey Aoon,
That is the most comprehensive and understandable description I’ve ever read. The science behind dyno figures are complex, but your overview makes sense. I’m based in West Sussex, but I’ll certainly be making the journey to Scotland to let you breath your magic on my car once it’s with me. Looking forward to follow up video, and also hearing when you’ve managed to crack the ECU………….that’s assuming you haven’t already done so


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Keano04

Registered User
I dyno around 7-10 RS3' a week, their is never a point where we don't have a CZGB/DAZA/DNWA Engine based car all together at the same time in the workshop. I know what these cars make stock day in, day out and then tuned.

I am exceptionally proud of my MAHA MSR500 dyno facility, this is the same dyno used by ABT, Brabus, Lamborghini, the AMG Project One and many, many other car manufacturers.

Just to play devil’s advocate… you could have been making the same mistake on around 7-10 cars a week… ie you could have been consistently wrong

Again, playing devil’s advocate… me driving an f1 car isn’t the same as Hamilton driving an f1 car… it’s a tool that’s entirely reliant upon the user

That all being said, thanks for the useful post - sounds like the new car is promising so hopefully you’ve calibrated the dyno correctly so those figures are accurate
 

Mike.46

Well-Known Member
Just to play devil’s advocate… you could have been making the same mistake on around 7-10 cars a week… ie you could have been consistently wrong

Again, playing devil’s advocate… me driving an f1 car isn’t the same as Hamilton driving an f1 car… it’s a tool that’s entirely reliant upon the user

That all being said, thanks for the useful post - sounds like the new car is promising so hopefully you’ve calibrated the dyno correctly so those figures are accurate
Yes, but either you or my granny launching an RS3 should end up with the same time..........
 

Mike.46

Well-Known Member
So we have Spinstorms 'borrowed RS3' and T1000 earlier RS3, on Unicorns dyno (who has earned unbelievable respect from the Golf R community) both making around the manufacturer claimed hp and Infinits claim that a std car makes 445hp, a full 40/45 hp more than the other two,mmmmmmmmmmmmm

Drag losses of 100hp/75kw from a drive train are too high imho, the figure seems to be around 18% from a web search, yes, that will vary depending on temperature within the drivetrain and tyre pressures (huge difference can be found here and how hard you pull the car down) but you can work a car all day long on a dyno whilst your playing and as the day goes on the whp tends to increase and the drag decrease with the flywheel/engine hp remaining pretty consant within about +/- 2-5hp

Infinit is measuring drag losses at 27% at 6500rpm, I just cant see that tbh, If that is the case you would be better off stripping the car down and getting all the drivetrain constant velocity joints to prop/carden shaft and driveshaft joints superfinished and also look at the grease within them and the wheel bearings etc than messing around with OPF removal and air intakes
 
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Mike.46

Well-Known Member
Just as an example of how wheel hp can gained cheaply Porsche with the 1973 (yes old but same principles) placed an oil pump and spray bar within the gearbox, this allowed the oil level to be reduced so the gears no longer 'ran in the oil' the oil was squirted into the gear mesh, this gave a 7hp increase in wheel hp
 

5pot

Registered User
So we have Spinstorms 'borrowed RS3' and T1000 earlier RS3, on Unicorns dyno (who has earned unbelievable respect from the Golf R community) both making around the manufacturer claimed hp and Infinits claim that a std car makes 445hp, a full 40/45 hp more than the other two,mmmmmmmmmmmmm

Drag losses of 100hp/75kw from a drive train are too high imho, the figure seems to be around 18% from a web search, yes, that will vary depending on temperature within the drivetrain and tyre pressures (huge difference can be found here and how hard you pull the car down) but you can work a car all day long on a dyno whilst your playing and as the day goes on the whp tends to increase and the drag decrease with the flywheel/engine hp remaining pretty consant within about +/- 2-5hp

Infinit is measuring drag losses at 27% at 6500rpm, I just cant see that tbh, If that is the case you would be better off stripping the car down and getting all the drivetrain constant velocity joints to prop/carden shaft and driveshaft joints superfinished and also look at the grease within them and the wheel bearings etc than messing around with OPF removal and air intakes
E2577C0C-29DF-427C-B741-8BBA3819AA84.jpeg
F7C3042B-9EA2-4BAD-974F-1D7ED0D13C4F.jpeg
So litchfield are doing it wrong aswell? :tearsofjoy:
 

Doja cat

Well-Known Member
Litcho LMAO fastest 8V PFL RS3 with stock internals (but secretly swapped in a hybrid turbo built on the same stock body shenanigans)



but, if you insist this RS3 is 450hp and draw in punters left right and centre for the magic touch then who am I to argue....

come to my dyno, guaranteed every punter will get the highest stock RS3 - I can give you 470 min and a piece of paper to prove it.
disclaimer car may run the same as 400hp tho because DA, temp, tyres, weight, colour, lights on/off or next door neighbour has a headache or his cat ate too much etc etc YMMV
 
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Aoon_M

Registered User
Just to play devil’s advocate… you could have been making the same mistake on around 7-10 cars a week… ie you could have been consistently wrong

Again, playing devil’s advocate… me driving an f1 car isn’t the same as Hamilton driving an f1 car… it’s a tool that’s entirely reliant upon the user

That all being said, thanks for the useful post - sounds like the new car is promising so hopefully you’ve calibrated the dyno correctly so those figures are accurate

Fortunately the Maha MSR 500 is calibrated every 6 months and we get calibration certificates to verify. The operator has pretty much no influence on the output figure as the drag losses and correction methods are done by the dyno itself. Again I do not just choose a multiplier or percentage to get as close to the factory figure as possible.

Yes, but either you or my granny launching an RS3 should end up with the same time..........

This couldn't be further from the truth. Your granny would be within 10% of my time yes, but that 10% in for example a quarter mile there could be a difference of a second.

If such was the case drag records would be set by anyone and everyone, please do some research into this - world records on many platforms are often set by drivers who are not the owners of the car, but by someone who is more experienced with performance timing.

@Leo-RS can give us some good insight on this. (not sure how to tag on here?)

So we have Spinstorms 'borrowed RS3' and T1000 earlier RS3, on Unicorns dyno (who has earned unbelievable respect from the Golf R community) both making around the manufacturer claimed hp and Infinits claim that a std car makes 445hp, a full 40/45 hp more than the other two,mmmmmmmmmmmmm

Drag losses of 100hp/75kw from a drive train are too high imho, the figure seems to be around 18% from a web search, yes, that will vary depending on temperature within the drivetrain and tyre pressures (huge difference can be found here and how hard you pull the car down) but you can work a car all day long on a dyno whilst your playing and as the day goes on the whp tends to increase and the drag decrease with the flywheel/engine hp remaining pretty consant within about +/- 2-5hp

Infinit is measuring drag losses at 27% at 6500rpm, I just cant see that tbh, If that is the case you would be better off stripping the car down and getting all the drivetrain constant velocity joints to prop/carden shaft and driveshaft joints superfinished and also look at the grease within them and the wheel bearings etc than messing around with OPF removal and air intakes

Drag losses of 90-120hp on a stock car is reality. I don't have any influence over the drag figures. I would like to think the MAHA dyno measuring drag losses individually on each individual dyno run is more accurate than doing a google search for vw/audi drag losses and using a percentage someone has posted from probably a completely different car with a completely different drivetrain, chassis, tyre size - need I go on? :) Even having ceramic brakes on a car vs having steel brakes makes a difference to the drag, so how can you pluck a figure from the internet and say yeah thats about right? :D
 
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Aoon_M

Registered User
Litcho LMAO fastest 8V PFL RS3 with stock internals (but secretly swapped in a hybrid turbo built on the same stock body shenanigans)



but, if you insist this RS3 is 450hp and draw in punters left right and centre for the magic touch then who am I to argue....

come to my dyno, guaranteed every punter will get the highest stock RS3 - I can give you 470 min and a piece of paper to prove it.
disclaimer car may run the same as 400hp tho because DA, temp, tyres, weight, colour, lights on/off or next door neighbour has a headache or his cat ate too much etc etc YMMV

It is a delusional opinion to have if you think all of the factors I have mentioned do not influence the performance time of a car.
 

Terminator x

Registered User
Why you all getting so uptight over this? Different dyno gets different result is the least surprising thing I have ever heard. Get your car and enjoy it, who cares whether it is 400hp or 450 from the factory.

TX.

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Detail Devil

Registered User
Why you all getting so uptight over this? Different dyno gets different result is the least surprising thing I have ever heard. Get your car and enjoy it, who cares whether it is 400hp or 450 from the factory.

TX.

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It’s always an interesting debate and I’ve lost count how many forums for other vehicles I’ve owned that these exact conversations happen. Personally I’m not uptight, stressed or concerned as actually enjoying the thread. Everyone’s got their opinions and it’s good we all share thoughts etc. Also this is AFAIK the first 8Y RS3 that’s been modified and like every other new car, someone has to go first!!!!!


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WilsonRS

Registered User
Why you all getting so uptight over this? Different dyno gets different result is the least surprising thing I have ever heard. Get your car and enjoy it, who cares whether it is 400hp or 450 from the factory.

TX.

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Agreed.

The takeaway is that we have a like for like run which shows how much power you'll get from decat / OPF removal, which is around 15-20BHP. Pretty decent.
 

HulkRS3

Kyalami RS3 Saloon
I would expect 15-20hp from a decat, I would expect the same from the manufacture underrating their car like the Mk8R. I wouldn’t expect to see a stock car be 50bhp over the manufacturers claims though and if it is indeed an accurate 450bhp then the A45s is wiping the floor with it.
But I don’t know Jack **** when it comes to dynos so happy to be proved wrong lol.

PS, nothing against Aoon I’ve just never seen a car make as much power over the manufacturers figures before.
 

5pot

Registered User
I would expect 15-20hp from a decat, I would expect the same from the manufacture underrating their car like the Mk8R. I wouldn’t expect to see a stock car be 50bhp over the manufacturers claims though and if it is indeed an accurate 450bhp then the A45s is wiping the floor with it.
But I don’t know Jack **** when it comes to dynos so happy to be proved wrong lol.

PS, nothing against Aoon I’ve just never seen a car make as much power over the manufacturers figures before.
GTRs, M5 + others all make way more than manufactures claim.
 

Mike.46

Well-Known Member
Fortunately the Maha MSR 500 is calibrated every 6 months and we get calibration certificates to verify. The operator has pretty much no influence on the output figure as the drag losses and correction methods are done by the dyno itself. Again I do not just choose a multiplier or percentage to get as close to the factory figure as possible.



This couldn't be further from the truth. Your granny would be within 10% of my time yes, but that 10% in for example a quarter mile there could be a difference of a second.

If such was the case drag records would be set by anyone and everyone, please do some research into this - world records on many platforms are often set by drivers who are not the owners of the car, but by someone who is more experienced with performance timing.

@Leo-RS can give us some good insight on this. (not sure how to tag on here?)



Drag losses of 90-120hp on a stock car is reality. I don't have any influence over the drag figures. I would like to think the MAHA dyno measuring drag losses individually on each individual dyno run is more accurate than doing a google search for vw/audi drag losses and using a percentage someone has posted from probably a completely different car with a completely different drivetrain, chassis, tyre size - need I go on? :) Even having ceramic brakes on a car vs having steel brakes makes a difference to the drag, so how can you pluck a figure from the internet and say yeah thats about right? :D
I'm not with you on my Granny getting a different 1/4 mile time from me or you!

Come on it doesnt matter who you are, or how you floor the accelerator and then just side slip the brake then let the car do the gear changing.

Now, If we are talking a manual car and flat gear changes at certain rpm etc I'd be with you :)

I appreciate the time youve taken by the way to answer al the questions and digs :) and I am no doubt that you did gain 15-20 hp, just not convinced on drive train losses, ive spent hours at dyno's over the years, mainly a Bosch, Sun, and a Dynojet and have never seen anything like the drag that you are seeing
 

Mike.46

Well-Known Member
I bought the Revo carbon airbox cover.
Standard air filter is fine, fancy air filters don’t offer as good filtration.
f54bd1f6e598264f13d458ddf5801679.jpg



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I found on our RS3 engined Golf Mk2 that the airbox and filter were OK but the inlets to the airbox and the plastic pipe from airbox around the rear of the engine was also restrictive once the HP was increased
 

Mike.46

Well-Known Member
For those that fancy a long read ................https://old.maha.de/test-findings-of-sport-auto-magazine-put-to-the-test-by-maha.htm
 

T-1000

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
I found on our RS3 engined Golf Mk2 that the airbox and filter were OK but the inlets to the airbox and the plastic pipe from airbox around the rear of the engine was also restrictive once the HP was increased

I drilled out the front / right side of the airbox base / side.


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