Brakes juddering at high speed

[CanadaA3wales]

Hey - all my calipers, discs and pads have been serviced and replaced on all 4's as when I was coming off a motorway or braking at over 50mph I would get this judder vibration in the brakes.

When everything was replaced the problem went away, but a few thousand miles later it has returned.

I have looked at several forums on other cars, and some have mentioned either the hubs, bearings or flange but it seems no one ever nailed down the problem and lots returned, but this was on other cars.

Has anyone come accross this?

My alloys are fine and straight, I am just wondering if its a warpped hub and if so can you tell or do you just need to replace them and hope for the best, is there a tool to see if the hubs are warped?

If you have come accross this, how did you fix it?

Calipers - serviced and ok
all 4 discs and pads brand new from 3000 miles ago
Allignment done
balancing ok
everything cleaned to ensure the wheels are flush

 

[leonwilliams]

I had something similar I had to anchor on at high speed in fast lane due to and idiot pulling out in front of me. My brakes juddered a bit change discs and pads now fine. I had put up with it for awhile but it did my head in.

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[CanadaA3wales]

Yeah ive never had to slam on or anything, even if I did new brakes should be able to cope with emergency stops. You would think anyway
Something is wrong.
It stops and probably safe, but everytime I brake I get this judder on the pedal/car/wheel on the front end.
Getting my guy to look at it next monday to ensure everything is good, also got a squeeky now, I think thats a bearing though, but never had a car that had this brake problem before

 

[leonwilliams]

Sorry mate I've no other idea hope you sort it I was going quite fast maybe discs heated up and warped slight ?

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[leonwilliams]

Come to think of it when I bought car 4 yes ago it had all new but they had used cheap parts I now have brembo all round

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[CanadaA3wales]

Yeah its very strange
All the new brakes were blueprint, not the best nor the worst.

 

[JohnM100]

Do you have S-Stronic and hold the car on the footbrake at junctions instead of handbrake? However I would expect it to take more than 3k miles to warp them.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

No its a simple Manual 6spd
The one thing he couldnt do was remove the electric handbrake, but he said it worked fine and just replaced the brakes, I may ask him to remove them and refurb them to ensure they work ok again.

I was hoping this may be a issue with some cars that I am not aware of as its my first Audi and my golf never did this at all, and I was hard on the brakes sometimes on that thing, it never skipped a beat.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Worst case, how much do new hubs and bearings cost?
If its a flange are they very expensive?
I just want good usuable parts, not extreme racing parts.
My guy charges 35.00ph so very good for labour.

Just had a quick look and seems they are around 30.00 each for 1 hub.
Is it worth fitting all 4 just in case?

Also with bearings, should I do all 4 just in case as well?

Since the wheels and hubs are off.

 

[Retroman]

My experience of brakes starting to judder (restricted when braking at high speed) is a sticky caliper - a problem which seems to be accentuated when braking at higher speed with the heat and expansion produced. To simply rule it out, just touch the wheels to see it one is really hot. I've known it melt the centre plastic cap on a BMW and burn relatively heat resistant paint from a caliper.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

How much harder is it to remove the brakes from the rear as its connected to an electric handbrake?

My guy, even though very experienced and I am sure he can do it, he did not do it last time, he just said he painted my rear calipers on, whereas he took the fronts off, he said you have to do more to take the rears off and didnt really need to take them off, so even though he took apart my fronts, he did not do the rears so i could have broken seals or like you said a stuck piston

I am thinking about asking him to go from bearings, pistons, calipers discs and pads.

Its annoying me so much I need it sorted, I dont care if it costs me 500.00, I do a lot of motorway driving to get my kids and everytime I leave I get this judder on my feet at the pedal.

 

[Retroman]

Given we're all just chucking in views on a forum, I would say it would seem unlikely that Audi hubs would be out of tolerance. Bearings (faulty ones) would usually be noisy and mechanics should be able to spot a possible loose/rough bearing problem by rocking and/or spinning the wheel. If you have an electronic handbrake you have to use car-specific software to rewind the calipers into the service position. It would be difficult to remove the caliper without doing this and impossible to change the brake pads without doing it.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Given we're all just chucking in views on a forum, I would say it would seem unlikely that Audi hubs would be out of tolerance. Bearings (faulty ones) would usually be noisy and mechanics should be able to spot a possible loose/rough bearing problem by rocking and/or spinning the wheel. If you have an electronic handbrake you have to use car-specific software to rewind the calipers into the service position. It would be difficult to remove the caliper without doing this and impossible to change the brake pads without doing it.

Ah well he must have the equipment for it as he replaced the discs and pads.

Will get him to inspect everything, he is very good, he hates sending cars out with problems he cant solve. Ive known him for 15 years and ive never had to send a car to a main dealer for a issue he couldnt deal with.

You are right it could be anything really, and this problem was there before the slight high pitch sound when I drive.

I have searched for every possible reason relating to this issue online and have found:
Bearings
Control arm - but not likely
pistons - caliper seals ect
flange

 

[AlS3BE]

Have you checked the new pads against the old ones? Only saying this as in my old golf I got a set of cheapy pads from euro and they vibrated and juddered and only upon very close inspection that the backing plate was a tiny bit smaller than the originals by like a mm or so. Replaced with decent trw pads with new shims etc and it went away.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Its unlikely that both sets of different brakes have done this as it was doing it when I bought the car and just thought it needed new brakes.
When I got the new brakes in february the shuddering stopped until about 4 weeks ago and its come back again.

 

[AlS3BE]

Other than discs warping can’t think why. I’ve managed to warp discs in 6-7ks before on 2 new audis and they didn’t warrant them.

 

[Booti]

Can you tell which corner it is coming from?
Check the obvious first, like the wheel is tight. Nuts can come loose and produce a wheel wobble only under braking.
Check the run out on the disc to see if it’s out of true. Then see if the hub is the same. It could be small amount of rust between the hub and disc setting it off true, or a warped disc. If the hub is out then this will amplify into the large radius of the disc.
A sticking calliper could also cause issues if it’s only applying pressure to one side. More likely rears if they haven’t been fully stripped and serviced.
I’d go through the stages before ordering and replacing everything.

 

[george forbes]

How much harder is it to remove the brakes from the rear as its connected to an electric handbrake?

My guy, even though very experienced and I am sure he can do it, he did not do it last time, he just said he painted my rear calipers on, whereas he took the fronts off, he said you have to do more to take the rears off and didnt really need to take them off, so even though he took apart my fronts, he did not do the rears so i could have broken seals or like you said a stuck piston

I am thinking about asking him to go from bearings, pistons, calipers discs and pads.

Its annoying me so much I need it sorted, I dont care if it costs me 500.00, I do a lot of motorway driving to get my kids and everytime I leave I get this judder on my feet at the pedal.

Just a thought but you say he painted the rear calipers whilst fitted, this could have led to paint getting in somewhere and causing the caliper to stick , lots of seizing problems before have been caused by the overenthusiastic application of paint

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Just a thought but you say he painted the rear calipers whilst fitted, this could have led to paint getting in somewhere and causing the caliper to stick , lots of seizing problems before have been caused by the overenthusiastic application of paint

No this happened when I bought the car, I just thought it needed new brakes, when they were fitted it went away for a few months then came back.

I do think all the calipers need to be taken off and fully serviced, the car is on 114 and I don't know if the rears have ever been done.

There is some real strange wear patterns on one of the rears, it looks as though there are marks that go from the top to the centre of the disc that look like a thick line about 2cm thick

 

[CanadaA3wales]

I think it's a sticking rear drivers caliper.
Look at the first 2 images and the weird wear pattern, but the last image is like all the other brakes, nice even wear with no scoring.

It doesn't look right does it?

 

[CanadaA3wales]

My mechanic said its Flucked and you cannot service the electric calipers, they need to be relplaced and are around £140.00 per side.
Will need a new set of pads and discs on that one side, I am not doing the other side as I just bought a whole new set 2-3k ago.

He said you cannot service the electric handbrakes calipers they need to be replaced, is this true?

Just had them painted as well, what a pain in the butt.

 

[george forbes]

top right picture is the shape left by the brake pad after sticking whilst wet or handbrake applied whilst discs were overheated possibly caused by the sticking caliper. in cases like that the excessive heat can leave a build up on the disc from the pad which will give the impression of warped discs

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Does anyone know the make and model of caliper that Audi use if it cant be fixed?
Its a 2014 A3 2.0TDI sportback
I want to ensure its the same as my other caliper.

 

[AlS3BE]

Does anyone know the make and model of caliper that Audi use if it cant be fixed?
Its a 2014 A3 2.0TDI sportback
I want to ensure its the same as my other caliper.

You need to check the sticker in your boot or manual and look for a PR code. I would also change the discs and pads in pairs and possibly the calipers by the pair as the other one can’t be far behind.
Before you go and replace them why don’t you try clearing the crap off the discs/pads. Drive up to 70-80 then hard brake(emergency stop style) till about 10-20 then repeat a few times but don’t completely stop. Quick 10 minutes drive after to cool it all off. As mentioned by George it could be pad material or contamination on the discs from pads and it’s coming off as warp disc feel. Doing this will clear some of the crap off.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Its hit and miss on changing both calipers
Some car guides say yes and others say there is no need.
They are 140.00 each so will be about 400 with install, or 200 for the one side
Plus I will need to buy a new disc and pads to the damaged side, so will be closer to 300.00 just for one side.

I may get him to inspec the other one and give it a clean up, if its in poor condition then I will have to bit the bullet.

 

[pedro61163]

I had same problem replaced driver rear caliper then 2 months later rear passenger caliper then I put on discs and pads. After I knew callers were okay

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Will ask him to see what he says, It would be nice to have matching rear new calipers operating at the same level with new brakes but thats going to be nearly 500.00 and I have just spend 650.00 on a major service and all new brakes discs and pads.

 

[Phutters]

Before you go and replace them why don’t you try clearing the **** off the discs/pads. Drive up to 70-80 then hard brake(emergency stop style) till about 10-20 then repeat a few times but don’t completely stop. Quick 10 minutes drive after to cool it all off. As mentioned by George it could be pad material or contamination on the discs from pads and it’s coming off as warp disc feel. Doing this will clear some of the **** off.

I'd try what Mr Al says too.

Maybe not quite as fast as 80; partly 'cos it's breaking the rules, like; partly because you might struggle to find anywhere to be able to brake that hard from a decent clip and repeat it several times (and the key to this is to get the brakes really hot) and partly because if it all goes tits up, hitting a tree at 50 or 60 is better than hitting one at 80.

Marginally.

I've used this technique successfully in the past to cure what I initially thought was a warped disc, and there's a school of thought that it's probably good practice anyway - brakes rarely get used in anger these days, and gingering them only increases the likelihood of uneven wear and scoring, particularly on the rear set.

An Italian tune-up for brakes, if you like.

.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

I mentioned a few times that this was happening when I bought the car which I thought it needed new brakes, after fitment it was fine then came back after a few months, maybe 2000 miles (Due to Covid - Low Miles) so it has nothing to do with the discs or pads as they are all new within 2-3k

 

[AlS3BE]

I mentioned a few times that this was happening when I bought the car which I thought it needed new brakes, after fitment it was fine then came back after a few months, maybe 2000 miles (Due to Covid - Low Miles) so it has nothing to do with the discs or pads as they are all new within 2-3k

in 2000 miles of tootering about is probably enough to leave some contamination on the discs especially stop start traffic and it being parked up with the pads pressing on hot/warm discs.
Would make sense how it all went away after new discs and pads and now it’s came back after a few thousand miles.

 

[AlS3BE]

Here’s a good read
https://alconkits.com/support/brake-pad-info/110-the-real-truth-about-warped-brake-rotors

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Sorry not a interesting read when they are trying to sell you a $50.00 kit LOL they mention several times their wonder kit will solve everything.
I find it funny that every single disc is fine and has an even wear but the rear drivers has these very odd wear patterns almost like a start and stop verticle lines as per my pictures.
I will get my mechanic to inspect everything from hubs/bearings/flange ect before forking out on a new electric brake.
Its a very frustrating problem as it may not even have anything to do with the caliper, but with the wear pattern I am leaning towards this outcome.

 

[45bvtc]

I mentioned a few times that this was happening when I bought the car which I thought it needed new brakes, after fitment it was fine then came back after a few months, maybe 2000 miles (Due to Covid - Low Miles) so it has nothing to do with the discs or pads as they are all new within 2-3k

Brake HARDER, please; just brake HARDER.

Pound to a pinch you're pussy-footing on the brake pedal and the friction deposits are just building up.

AND, don't forget the INSIDE disc face - the OUTSIDE disc faces are just HALF of the braking surfaces and to be sure the INSIDE surfaces collect friction deposits worse - being 'protected' by the dirt shield.

A simple procedure for both 'bedding-in' and 'friction deposit cleaning':

• Perform 20 (ish) brake applications slowing from 60mph to 20mph

• Allow 15-20 seconds between each brake application

• Use medium deceleration - approximately 60% of maximum

• DO NOT brake to a stop as friction deposits are likely to 'bond' to the brake disc and you'll believe you have a warped brake-disc

• When completed, drive the vehicle for at least 5 minutes with little or no braking allowing the brake discs and pads to adequately cool

depending on the state of your discs you may need to undertake the above procedure several times.

It is NOT a NEW issue, the resolution is simple and straight forward Brake HARDER...

 

[Phutters]

I will get my mechanic to inspect everything from hubs/bearings/flange ect before forking out on a new electric brake.
Its a very frustrating problem as it may not even have anything to do with the caliper, but with the wear pattern I am leaning towards this outcome.

Why don't you try the suggestions that don't cost anything first?

.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

Sorry I did not mention, but I have slammed on my brakes several times to see if it clears anything up, I have also tried to do a long break do warm them up but I still get the juddering.
I have tried it on the motorway when it was dead and again it has not cleaned up.
I know how to clear break debris and dust, I have been driving since I was 16 and I am now 43.

 

[CanadaA3wales]

I was just wondering if anyone had this problem and found that it was usually some sort of part that Audi may have had a issue with.
I will know on tuesday or wednesday when I get my car back, but will be sure to ask him to check everything before spending the money on new calipers.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
On the way there on monday I will try the braking suggestions again, but have done this several times to no avail.

 

[45bvtc]

It's why SMALLER brakes are usually trouble free as one has to use 'em HARDER. BIG brakes for road use lend themselves to vibration issues as the disc surfaces both front and rear, inside and outside (that's 8-surfaces in all) are rarely cleaned off sufficiently.

PS: as to your 43 years of age (post #35): I am 75 going 76 (and I still do my own brake maintenance) and do not have braking issues on either my TT, RS3 and/or SQ5 so for sure your problem is not an age issue.

​

 

[Retroman]

I don't know the OE manufacturer of your calipers but mine are TRW. The TRW type on mine (rears) are well known for seizing - across the whole VAG range on which they are used. When I did a major service on my brakes a while back, I didn't like the feel of one of the rear caliprs when trying to wind it back and I noticed that it had what looked like a hole made by a screwdriver in the dust cover where the Unipart garage (who put new pads in for the previous owner) has presumably levered the caliper apart with a screwdriver.

I have a manual handbrake and I took the decision to replace both rears - only about £65 each.

There is no problem with renewing just one caliper although discs and pads should be replaced in axle sets as you presumably know.

 

[Booti]

There is no reason your mechanic can’t remove and service the caliper. The only difference over a traditional one is it has an electric cable for the handbrake, instead of a handbrake cable.
Replacement callipers, if needed, can be had for £190ish from Brakes International (with an additional surcharge until they get the old one back)

 

[CanadaA3wales]

There is no reason your mechanic can’t remove and service the caliper. The only difference over a traditional one is it has an electric cable for the handbrake, instead of a handbrake cable.
Replacement callipers, if needed, can be had for £190ish from Brakes International (with an additional surcharge until they get the old one back)

He has his set suppliers and I cannot wait for them the be delivered as they will be ordered on monday and may not arrive until wednesday or thursday, thats a long time to be without a car.

I will just tell him to get decent brakes, he knows I have kids and he takes my safety pretty seriously as we are friends.

I will ask his opinion about the 2 calipers, but he said they are usually 140ish, He did not say if that was 1 or 2, but assume its only 1.

I am not sure if I should get my old ones back or if they are worth selling on, I dont know if I can be bothered.