DQ250 to DQ500 swap

[grainqey]

I suppose I better post a project thread about this now that I'm actually doing this swap!

I ended up looking at this rather than spending as much if not possibly more money on uprated dsg clutches (didn't really fancy 1200 + labour vs my own free time and the "enjoyment" of doing it myself!

I had to quiz Andy at storm developments for his information about which gearboxes to use (or not to use which I ignored - oops) and in regards to the wiring (had to look for the pinouts of both gearboxes which are now online on a couple of forums - I ended up buying the flashing cables for both and went through the pins to see which was which as well old vs new connector)

I cannot take much credit at all for the wiring as Andy told me what to do and I partially figured out the pinouts on old vs new and one pinout thread, I had a response from when I revived it after somebody else asked about the pinouts and I responded to them.

I ended up buying a NZS gearbox off a Tiguan and I thought I was better off making an extension cable to be able to plug in the gearbox before actually making the swap to make sure the gearbox actually talked to the car on VCDS first

I also ended up buying a transfer box (also off a Tiguan) although the gearbox and transfer box were both off a TDI to make sure the drive splines in the gearbox and transfer box matched!

SO the parts list so far:

• -NZS gearbox (think the MYB is the one to go for as it seems to be from a petrol Tiguan and also sometimes on the RS3's
• -Tiguan TDI transfer box
• -Driveshafts - I did look at running my existing driveshafts and using the stub axle from the old gearbox on the new one but they bolt into the DQ250
• -Transfer box support bracket (no idea which one you're supposed to buy to fit the diesel transfer box and the petrol bottom end )
• -The extension loom that plugs into the gearbox (DQ250 and DQ500 have different connectors!) Part # is 8P0971499A as I happen to have the box infront of me!
• Flywheel - got this from a diesel tiguan - correct part number ends in AM from the tiguan
• Couple of silicon 90 degree bends and pipe connectors as the oil cooler is different - the DQ500 pipes go forward and down to another auxillary radiator
• Selector lever with cable (the two gearboxes use different length cables which I did wonder and confirmed this morning - read ordered haha!)
• DSG oil - ordered 7 liters as the gearbox should have been drained
• Axle oil as this should have also been drained
• Gearbox filter and o-ring

At this point I may well have gone past the sum of 1200 for clutches but just think how much fun I've had getting the gearbox past the subframe and chassis "rail" - there are not enough bad swear words to describe this task whilst using a combination of a big trolley jack, a scissor jack and an over engine beam

Pics to follow
Thanks
Alex

 

[S3Alex]

Well done so far!

I can't claim any credit at all for mine.

DeckedS3 was the first to sort of give me the idea it could be done and then Andy at Storm convinced me and @poverty supplied me with a DQ500.

Sorted

Well certainly not by me.

You're doing a great job and I'm sure Decked would appreciate the hard work.

Hope it all fires up properly

 

[grainqey]

Well so far it has run with the gearbox on it's "little" 7 Metre extension cable and all showed up ok on VCDS and seemed to know what position the selector and everything was in but I may swap the whole selector unit rather than trying to get the wire off when it turns up!

It's currently all bolted on and just the few last bits doing but I cant put it together properly as I've got to take everything off to sort the selector cable so it's currently sat with all the battery housing, transfer box, downpipe and driveshafts out!

 

[grainqey]

I've just checked and the part number for the flywheel is: 03L105266AM

 

[DeckedS3]

Interesting project and good luck, I know what you're going through! If you need help I'm sure we can share some good swear works! Haha

So what car do you have? And what spec is it?

 

[grainqey]

Haha! thanks Decked, yes we most certainly can share swear works!

Mines an A3 8P, 2.0TFSI, DSG from factory and it's a split grill so one of the first dsg equipped as far as I know! it's sport spec - so S-line but old school version! heated alcantara seats, with plenty of added bits with black headlining and the piano black door inserts etc

Some of the mods so far are:
CDL engine
S3 alloy end tank intercooler
S3 injectors
Recirc valve relocate pipe so as per S3 engine bay!
Custom mapped with non hybrid K04
W/I AEM V2 from memory
B6 S4 avus'
cayenne calipers with 350mm discs (the newer cayenne so custom brackets)
S3 rear brakes
RNSE - mk1 with NAV, didn't bother with the Bluetooth phone module
MFSW - had factory CC and paddles so had the correct clock spring oddly!
turbo back 3" jetex exhaust - funked this up a bit with a duplex portion between downpipe and catback and also no 2.5" reduction at the joint!
Anti lift kit
facelift rear bumper - with the black and silver "thing" at the bottom
VCDS mods - tear drop wiping front and rear, windscreen wipe on reverse with front wipers on errrr - forgotten most of the VCDS stuff I've done!

I've done everything except the map, oh and spray painting the bumper haha!

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

If my photobucket decides to let me have the links to share then I'll post direct side by side gearboxes and dsg 6 vs 7 flywheels as the dq500 is larger diameter and thicker with bigger internal splines

 

[S3Alex]

That'd be really good.

Getting the flywheel and selector were a few of the problem parts for Storm.

 

[grainqey]

Flywheel comparison:





Obviously the dirty one is DQ250 and clean one is tiguan TDI

 

[grainqey]

That'd be really good.

Getting the flywheel and selector were a few of the problem parts for Storm.

The selector wasn't that bad but fortunately there are a couple on ebay ATM but will confirm when mine arrives that they are defo correct - I didn't think i'd need with mine being dsg but the cable isn't long enough:

It should be visible in the background - about 2" too short!

 

[DeckedS3]

There are quite a few different connectors out there. If you need additional length you may as well make an adapter with connectors on each end giving you some slack.

 

[grainqey]

There are quite a few different connectors out there. If you need additional length you may as well make an adapter with connectors on each end giving you some slack.

even the outer for the old dsg cable is about an inch too short and the inner is 2" and without the outer being long enough the cable will not be supported so may just bend - if you've ever had a brake cable with a damaged or missing outer, you can yank the actual cable to operate brakes or pulling the brake lever does naff all! - push bikes for you but my mountain bike uses hydraulic brakes...and they're 6 pot lmao! (hope M6/mono 6 lol, ones even an old M6 "Ti")

 

[S3Alex]

The selector wasn't that bad but fortunately there are a couple on ebay ATM but will confirm when mine arrives that they are defo correct - I didn't think i'd need with mine being dsg but the cable isn't long enough:

It should be visible in the background - about 2" too short!

Looks like it's on some form of life support there....

 

[grainqey]

think it needs a shot of adrenaline haha!

 

[audismart]

Interesting thread.
Are you going to change the diff too?

 

[grainqey]

I'm fitting a transfer box once I've swapped over the selector cable but mines fwd so doesn't normally have a rear diff - may look into AWD once I've got this sorted

 

[audismart]

You gotta stick in a qauife lsd, especially on a fwd. VAG 02M 2WD transmission (6-speed) Quaife ATB Helical LSD differential
Ill be doing mine sometime along with the clutches, this 7 speed is really interesting me too.

 

[grainqey]

the easiest way to do it is how S3Alex's was done (RS3 parts) most of the tiguan parts are a straight swap but as soon as you choose e.g a diesel gearbox then your stuck with the corresponding transfer box and rear diff if AWD

The ratios are different between petrol and diesel which I don't mind as from looking into it 1st on the diesel box is lower than mine and 7th is higher than my 6th currently

 

[grainqey]

Todays little update is the shift lever arriving so this got fitted, I also changed the Can gateway to a 2010> A3 one but I cant see to find the 0BH gearbox in the coding (theres the 09L autobox, 6 speed manual, 02E (dq250) and another but cant remember off the top of my head)

Not very good quality but it'd gone dark!

 

[grainqey]

I've got stuck with this currently

I keep getting the fault code on gearbox of 10685 - U1121 databus message missing (whether this is immobilier related or steering angle sensor coding having gone funky I'm not sure) the description however is about as useful as mud! I've googled it and nobody has had this issue from the google results - not on a gearbox anyway

P.s no fault codes on immobilizer and says engine is allowed to start

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

I think I might need my engine and gearbox pairing/gearbox pairing - I've been through everything and everything looks ok n the immobilizer but the key just turns and doesn't even try to start and only fault code is data bus signal missing and I cant do the basic settings on the G85 because it wont start to move it below 20mph

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

Update on this - my gearbox is from an MQB so wont communicate (2013) - it seems diesels were swapped over earlier than 2016 when they changed over to the MQB platform so i'm just waiting to hear back if I can use RS3 mechatronics in my tiguan gearbox or if I need to swap a matching mechatronics AND gearbox which may mean transfer box too so i'll update when I know.

Last jobs to do if gearbox doesn't need to come off are; transfer box (which means dropping the engine oil and removing turbo oil return on the sump end as it gets in the way!) and rear portion of downpipe to put back on - battery tray is still out so it's easier to get to the oil filter after I've emptied the gearbox to do mechatronics (for when I fill the gearbox which meant syringing it in to begin with as I don't have the filler to do it through the sump so I force it down the filter tube base which then draws the rest in though still takes an utter age!

Basically it's easier to just use RS3 gearbox!

 

[S3Alex]

Update on this - my gearbox is from an MQB so wont communicate (2013) - it seems diesels were swapped over earlier than 2016 when they changed over to the MQB platform so i'm just waiting to hear back if I can use RS3 mechatronics in my tiguan gearbox or if I need to swap a matching mechatronics AND gearbox which may mean transfer box too so i'll update when I know.

Last jobs to do if gearbox doesn't need to come off are; transfer box (which means dropping the engine oil and removing turbo oil return on the sump end as it gets in the way!) and rear portion of downpipe to put back on - battery tray is still out so it's easier to get to the oil filter after I've emptied the gearbox to do mechatronics (for when I fill the gearbox which meant syringing it in to begin with as I don't have the filler to do it through the sump so I force it down the filter tube base which then draws the rest in though still takes an utter age!

Basically it's easier to just use RS3 gearbox!

That's a monstrous PITA....

I'm guessing that's why Andy said I should only use an RS3 box,but that doesn't help you in the slightest.
Have you tried talking to either Storm or maybe DSG-Dokter for this latest round of problems....?

 

[grainqey]

It is indeed!

I don't know if I dare risk using a tsi tiguan mechatronic/order an rs3 mechatronic only/buy a complete rs3 box and try swapping only the mechatronics first to test it for future reference!

I've been talking to RPC motorsport in spain as I can instant message him (both storm developments and DSG dokter you seem to have to ring rather than e-mail) so this is more convenient for me and he's been really helpful - he thought my gearbox was an mqb when I told him what it was off but had to check (also siemans ecu on the tdi tiguan rather than the bosch from the petrols)

 

[S3Alex]

RS3 boxes alone seem to go for around £1.6-2k
The transfer case etc is usually sold separately of course...

 

[grainqey]

Yup! I can get a complete box or a mechatronics for 1500ish but still needs component protection to be given the tablet of "F"
and yes I think I paid about 220ish for my transfer box which wasn't too bad but I know that the RS3 trans. boxes go for more. Atleast I can sell my tiguan mechatronics but would obviously be TDI and UDS/MQB specific

 

[S3Alex]

Yup! I can get a complete box or a mechatronics for 1500ish but still needs component protection to be given the tablet of "F"
and yes I think I paid about 220ish for my transfer box which wasn't too bad but I know that the RS3 trans. boxes go for more. Atleast I can sell my tiguan mechatronics but would obviously be TDI and UDS/MQB specific

I hope this all works out.....it's really depressing when something that should work,doesn't.

My fingers are crossed for when my car gets started up.....

 

[DeckedS3]

So it sounds like the MQB gearbox fits. Are you sure it's not just the pinouts are different to what you're expecting? When I hooked mine up the first time I crossed over the wrong CAN bus connection and it went a bit crazy. whats yours doing?

 

[S3Alex]

Physically yes but the comms protocol is very different.

I did a bit of reading which defeated me at around the "2nd layer"

 

[DeckedS3]

Physically yes but the comms protocol is very different.

I did a bit of reading which defeated me at around the "2nd layer"

I'm surprised by that. Now I want to find out whats different

 

[S3Alex]

I'm surprised by that. Now I want to find out whats different

I looked
I read
I did not understand

Thank god for those who speak gearbox fluently

LOL

 

[grainqey]

lol at you two!

Update, I'm now the errr..... proud? owner of two DQ500's (got an RS3 box tonight)

I'm going to try the RS3 mechatronics on the tiguan box on Friday as I wont have time before work until Friday (I don't work Fridays)

All will be revealed/discovered and I'm just hoping that the fault code is "component protection" which is a nice easy and cheap 95 pounds to remove from VW

The actual UDS tiguan mechatronic seems to communicate in everyway except for unexpected comms signals from engine to gearbox which would be explained by the different ecu's (siemans vs bosch) as the map locations and coding will be in a different format (if you read into UDS flashing - it's quite different as you have to send UDS commands to the mechatronic to allow flashing and OBD reading is blocked from memory for example)

Worst case scenario the mechatronics wont work with the Tiguan gearbox so I have to swap to the RS3 box but I'm optimistic!

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

So it sounds like the MQB gearbox fits. Are you sure it's not just the pinouts are different to what you're expecting? When I hooked mine up the first time I crossed over the wrong CAN bus connection and it went a bit crazy. whats yours doing?

The MQB and normal DQ500's look identical except for the breather pipe on the RS3 box and also the mechatronics cover on the RS3 doesn't have any studs to fasten the wiring bracket to where as the tiguan does

In regards to lights flashing, mine doesn't flash, on the measuring blocks everything is down as can gateway 1, trans. 1, instruments 1 which is as it should be meaning its all communicating though something weird is obviously going off as the fault code happens at 255km/h which is the highest speed on the speedo meaning the speed sensor is very wrong for the tdi box (whether that's sensor scaling/polarity or coding I don't know)

 

[S3Alex]

Look at you...speaking fluent DSG and UDS!

Well done on getting another box so fast.
Good luck and keep the updates coming.

 

[grainqey]

Haha! I'd been eyeing it up but I didn't want to commit to it until I got stuck between ordering a mechatronic for 1580 from TPS or the gearbox

I honestly do not speak fluent DSG or UDS, I only know what I've read and the fact that I'm interested in mapping to save money and the convenience of being able to put together a basic map for such as big turbo/ injectors/ maf housings to the point where I got a definition file for the MED9 ecu (it was in german until I translated the majority of it) though some of the maps are not defined still - ARGH!

I'm waiting for decked to ask if he can buy my Tiguan mechatronic for evil experiments

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

I looked
I read
I did not understand

Thank god for those who speak gearbox fluently

LOL

I'm surprised by that. Now I want to find out whats different

To both of you two, I can imagine a very in depth conversation to the point that we'd have to be turfed out of a pub at closing time haha!

It's quite surprising the level of what you can do within the ecu codings - I cant remember what definition files I have for the DSG's without looking (I know I have one but cant remember if its DQ500 or 250 though I'm quite tempted to go through it to see exactly what is in there, obviously there are maps for the friction co-efficient and I think there's a map for the oil cooling of the clutches which are just odd ones I can remember)

 

[S3Alex]

I honestly take my hat off to you for even thinking of doing this level of stuff.

I can do what I do at work but this is way out of my comfort zone!

 

[grainqey]

I honestly take my hat off to you for even thinking of doing this level of stuff.

I can do what I do at work but this is way out of my comfort zone!

What is it that you do at work Alex? I cant remember reading it in the thread for what jobs everybody does on here.

Thanks for that! They said I couldn't fit an S60R exhaust to a T5 - I proved them wrong. I've done a few other things first but I'm in engineering so it's kind of a ...hmm...can I make this fit so I go read a bit usually!

 

[S3Alex]

That's half the fun of all this,isn't it....proving that something actually can be done.

 

[DeckedS3]

I'm waiting for decked to ask if he can buy my Tiguan mechatronic for evil experiments

Thanks
Alex

Haha, I actually have an MQB gearbox in the wifes S3. Although I'm not sure how happy she'll be with me testing with it

You are right about friction plate efficiency maps & cooling though, I had a look at what TVS tweak versus what other DSG mappers do (as I originally had APR DSG map that was shocking).