Drained an engine part out with the oil (2.5TDi)

[AlexGSi2000]

Well, as the title says - was carrying out my regular 5,000 mile oil change before when this popped out with the magnetic sump plug;

Any ideas as to what it may be? (cue adams)

More importantly - what does this mean?

 

[Mike B]

No idea but someone will.Bit scary but if all seems well it may be OK.How big is it?It could have been there a long time even from new stuck in a corner if its small and heavy.Dont think my plug is magnetic but will be prepared next time I do a change

 

[murran]

i know what that is. lol. sorry to bring a bit of doom and gloom to your day.....

its one of the little shim pads that sit on top of the valves. it locates the slipper rocker arm on the valve.
that slipper rocker arm will also be kicking about in your engine somewhere. whichever valve its off wont be opening.
youve probably not noticed any running faults/misfires as these engines have 4 valves per cyl. so if its off an inlet valve for example off say cyl.2 that cylinder still has 1 working inlet valve and one not opening. so will still run ok, but with that rocker arm off it will be down on oil pressure to the other tappets in that head....... is it sounding more noisy than usual?

you need to get the rocker/cam covers off to find out which valve its off. also to assess why its come off. if the tappets rockers and cams are all worn out??????? then get one of those kits for £1100 with new everything to repair it.

sorry!

 

[AlexGSi2000]

Thanks murran, little gutted to hear that to be honest....mind you when parts come out with oil then it usually it means something bad.
How would this cause lower oil pressure in the head?

How hard is this job to do? Do the heads need to come off?

 

[Ste_Nova]

i had this happen on a car, turned out someone had dropped it into the engine when it was apart previously, they had fitted a new one but left the old one in the sump! there was no risk as its too big to be sucked up by the pump

 

[AlexGSi2000]

If I am very lucky - hopefully that may be the case.

I do have full service history for the car & there is no mention of cams ever being replaced.etc (car is on 124k) & cam cover nuts look untouched, so it almost rules it out.

Its not really financially feasible for me to have work done on the car at the minute, especially as its likely to be £1k+
I will have to allow it go get worse to confirm the issue and give me a little time to save to ease the burden... £180 insurance per month doesn't really help!

 

[adamss24]

Bring it to me Alex, i will take the rockers off and see which is missing. I would not leave it like that for too long as it can drop a valve if the rocker gets squshed between a valve and cam ! happened to my allroad !

 

[bowen]

Hope its not bad news Alex.

 

[AlexGSi2000]

Bring it to me Alex, i will take the rockers off and see which is missing. I would not leave it like that for too long as it can drop a valve if the rocker gets squshed between a valve and cam ! happened to my allroad !

Just tried to send you a PM but your inbox is full..

 

[murran]

How would this cause lower oil pressure in the head?

How hard is this job to do? Do the heads need to come off?

the slipper rocker arm locates on top of the valve using the shim pad you found. the other end is female and locates of top of the male hydraulic tappet end, oil comes out of the end of the tappet, the male and female fit together to form a seal. without the rocker arm on the tappet it cant seal on the round top of it. oil will be coming out of the tappet without the rocker in place theres no restriction. if flow isnt restricted then you'll have a drop in pressure.

heads dont need to come off. but the cambelt and the cams need to be removed. its not a hard job if your familiar with these engines. but its quite a few hours work.

 

[AlexGSi2000]

Cheers for the advice - I have just ordered the following kit from ebay;

PREMIUM 2.5 TDI V6 KIT INCL CAMSHAFTS, TIMING & MULTIRIB BELTS KITS A4 A6 PASSAT | eBay

Cambelt was due in 10,000 miles anyway so may aswell have the two jobs done at once.

My luck this month has been pretty bad - had to replace all four 19" tyres last week, tax is due at the end of the month, now this!

Just hope the engine will be good for another 100k+ as I think I will probably have this car for a few more years yet!

 

[bizza25]

hi alex i have the same kit on last 2 weeks see 'v6 camshaft replacement' thread and i must say it has improved the engine noise considerably however i'm having a few issues with the pump timing since but that is mechanics poor work not a kit issue.

this kit is very good value compared to uk prices, michael laski is very good to deal with everything packed well and he threw in 6 bosch plugs and pollen filter for me too.


one thing you dont get in the kit is a seal for the vacuum pump. this pump is removed after the rocker cover is off and does not seal 100% when put back on again. now i have oil dripping onto the exhaust and causing a burning smell when pressure is built up. part number i think is 059 145 117 but have to confirm tomorow as ordering mine then. my vaccum pump is 057 145 100c hope i dont need that too. will let you know tomorrow the part number for sure.

also you need to be really carefull when sealing the rocker covers even though you have bought victor reinz gasket they are weak at the corners and oil will be forced out even when nuts tight. a layer of silicone is reqired aswell right out to the end caps.

when doing this work is have someone who knows what they are doing, who will note the original setting of the pump and timing before doing the job as im still having warm starting issues that i never had before. i am being told that someone has workied at my car before and they are not factory settings and there must be some wear in my pump so he is now struggling work out what way it was set before the belts change as apparently it was not 'factory' muppet.

anyway there is also good thread on this site for replacing the crankcase breather so you know what is involved (it is the oil seperator part you bought in the ebay link)

hope thats of some use and hope the job goes well for you, nothing worse than a bad job done after spending all that money

 

[AlexGSi2000]

hi alex i have the same kit on last 2 weeks see 'v6 camshaft replacement' thread and i must say it has improved the engine noise considerably however i'm having a few issues with the pump timing since but that is mechanics poor work not a kit issue.

this kit is very good value compared to uk prices, michael laski is very good to deal with everything packed well and he threw in 6 bosch plugs and pollen filter for me too.


one thing you dont get in the kit is a seal for the vacuum pump. this pump is removed after the rocker cover is off and does not seal 100% when put back on again. now i have oil dripping onto the exhaust and causing a burning smell when pressure is built up. part number i think is 059 145 117 but have to confirm tomorow as ordering mine then. my vaccum pump is 057 145 100c hope i dont need that too. will let you know tomorrow the part number for sure.

also you need to be really carefull when sealing the rocker covers even though you have bought victor reinz gasket they are weak at the corners and oil will be forced out even when nuts tight. a layer of silicone is reqired aswell right out to the end caps.

when doing this work is have someone who knows what they are doing, who will note the original setting of the pump and timing before doing the job as im still having warm starting issues that i never had before. i am being told that someone has workied at my car before and they are not factory settings and there must be some wear in my pump so he is now struggling work out what way it was set before the belts change as apparently it was not 'factory' muppet.

anyway there is also good thread on this site for replacing the crankcase breather so you know what is involved (it is the oil seperator part you bought in the ebay link)

hope thats of some use and hope the job goes well for you, nothing worse than a bad job done after spending all that money

Thanks for the advice, I will get the pump seals ordered too.
I believe the pump timing can be monitored from VCDS and adjusted accordingly?
I will be taking the car to adamss24 and leaving it in his capable hands - I have done basic work on cars before, clutches.etc but dont feel confident enough to tackle anything like this, especially when engine timing is involved.
Let me know how you get on with the pump timing, i recall searching google and finding a guide for the skoda with the same engine.

 

[bizza25]

just of phone to TPS, 2 vacuum pump seals needed a small and large one the part nums are 059 145 117 and 059 145 117 B but they are not in stock so have ordered. i have an old sock tied around at the mo to catch the oil! no more than ten quid for them both.

yeah pump timing it can be adjusted with vcds addams was talking about advancing towards the green line but not past it. unfortunatly my old version of vag com does not provide the graph tool so cant see how it is set. the mechanic had the computer on the car though so i assume he can see.

after monitoring last few days car is now starting within 2 two turns after overnight sit. (car was re timed by mechanic last week who said it was two teeth out)will start fine again until its been warmed up but when let cool for a while then it takes 5, 6, 7 turns really strange. i though if the timing was out it would be the same every start. coolant sensor also replaced but no diff. wrecking my head!

 

[AlexGSi2000]

just of phone to TPS, 2 vacuum pump seals needed a small and large one the part nums are 059 145 117 and 059 145 117 B but they are not in stock so have ordered. i have an old sock tied around at the mo to catch the oil! no more than ten quid for them both.

yeah pump timing it can be adjusted with vcds addams was talking about advancing towards the green line but not past it. unfortunatly my old version of vag com does not provide the graph tool so cant see how it is set. the mechanic had the computer on the car though so i assume he can see.

after monitoring last few days car is now starting within 2 two turns after overnight sit. (car was re timed by mechanic last week who said it was two teeth out)will start fine again until its been warmed up but when let cool for a while then it takes 5, 6, 7 turns really strange. i though if the timing was out it would be the same every start. coolant sensor also replaced but no diff. wrecking my head!

If you are close then you are welcome to use my VCDS to check the timing.

 

[Turkster]

chris will fix it, when i had my cams done at Audi it cost me over £2500,

 

[bizza25]

im across the irish sea in ni unfortunatly ..a boat trip away!

 

[murran]

how are you getting it down to adamss24 from liverpool?

 

[AlexGSi2000]

how are you getting it down to adamss24 from liverpool?

Will be driving down next month at some point.

 

[murran]

can you not bob the rocker covers off yourself with a view to retriving the displaced rocker arm?

if its kicking about near the other valves or cogs connecting the cams it could cause more problems.

ive seen damaged cogs and cracked cam carrier caps from just this.

 

[AlexGSi2000]

can you not bob the rocker covers off yourself with a view to retriving the displaced rocker arm?

if its kicking about near the other valves or cogs connecting the cams it could cause more problems.

ive seen damaged cogs and cracked cam carrier caps from just this.

That is probably a good idea in all fairness. Is it just a case of removing the diesel lines to the injectors and then removing the rocker cover?

How do I prime the injectors after having the lines off?

Thanks.

 

[adamss24]

^^^ If it's manual gearbox then you can tow it for a few meters, if auto i am afraid only brake cleaner will get it started or prolonged cranking- not good if the starter goes !
Sound advice from Murran, my allroad dropped a valve when a rocker arm got caught between a valve and camshaft !

 

[AlexGSi2000]

^^^ If it's manual gearbox then you can tow it for a few meters, if auto i am afraid only brake cleaner will get it started or prolonged cranking- not good if the starter goes !
Sound advice from Murran, my allroad dropped a valve when a rocker arm got caught between a valve and camshaft !

Yeah its a manual - so just sort of pull bump start it until it fires?

 

[murran]

no, your better off bleeding the pipes rather than drag bump starting it.
basically with a rotary pump like this the pump sends pulses of pressure to each injector in turn. if theres air in the pipe between the pump and injector..... the air is easily compressable and will "absorb" the pulses of pressure, hence no injection.

if you nip up the 17mm union on the injector end of all the pipes, then undo them a half turn. then crank the engine over untill you can see positive squirts of diesel with no bubbles exiting from round the loose unions (shouldnt take more than 10-15 seconds cranking). then as quickly as you can nip up all the pipes again and crank it over again (shouldnt take more than 10 seconds) and it'll start.

i did this today on mattupnorths afb engine thats been in at our place. worked just fine.

 

[AlexGSi2000]

Well, after recommendations - I spent a while today fishing about in one of the heads for the dis-located rocker arm.

On close inspection the cams didnt "seem" to have much wear, as there were no lips or high/low points - but they did look scored.

The wear was more evident on the rocker arm that came out - there was a dip on the contact point of the camshaft;

Just a shame some of these engines suffer from this problem - I must have jinxed myself a few months ago when I said I thought my cams were fine.

All the new kit is here - loads of parts, pulleys and tensioners. - I will be keeping the car for a lot longer than anticipated now - but atleast I will be in the knowledge the top ends are sound.

Just need to wait a while to get the bits fitted - may even benefit from it as I will be taking the pushbike too and from work....excersise..ergh!

 

[murran]

fantastic, where abouts was it? which head? which valve?

it doesnt look all that worn from what ive seen of "worn" ones myself. just wondering why its jumped out........
were you able to see the male end of the tappet? did the nipple on the end look worn egg shaped?
remember what i said earlier about a poor male/female oil seal on the nipple end tappet and rocker arm. worn end would mean a drop in oil pressure to the head.... starting with this worn tappet?

did you get tappets with that kit?

 

[AlexGSi2000]

fantastic, where abouts was it? which head? which valve?

it doesnt look all that worn from what ive seen of "worn" ones myself. just wondering why its jumped out........
were you able to see the male end of the tappet? did the nipple on the end look worn egg shaped?
remember what i said earlier about a poor male/female oil seal on the nipple end tappet and rocker arm. worn end would mean a drop in oil pressure to the head.... starting with this worn tappet?

did you get tappets with that kit?

In the drivers side head, middle cylinder (guessing the 2nd or 5th) on the inlet side.

Didn't pay much attention to the male side of the tappet to be honest.

Yeah the kit came with;
Rocker arms, thrust pads, hydraulic lifters, 4 cams - along with all new belts, pulleys, tensioners, waterpump, thermostat..etc - the link to the ebay item is towards the top of the thread.

 

[murran]

wow thats a pretty comprehencive kit for 1100!

 

[AlexGSi2000]

Just out of interest - will I be experiencing an obvious lack of power with worn cams?
(I didn't notice it drop power - but the cams may have already been worn when I purchased the car 5,000 miles ago)

A mate of mine reckons i'm seriously down on power (even baring in mind the weight and quattro)

Obviously I don't have a valve opening, but wouldn't think it would make much of a difference?

 

[adamss24]

The v6 engine has a very linear power output and feels slow when in fact it isn't ! what car is your mate used to drive ? Sold a mapped pd 130 passat today, it was very fast giving you wiplash, however i also have a b6 180 Bhp quattro sport which feels flat as a pancake but it's faster than the pd passat ! The passat could pull a car lenght due to less lag but as soon as the v6 turbo starts spooling it's game over !

 

[brinks]

Not familiar with this engine but how the heck does that part make it's way from the head to the sump when it falls off?

I'm amazed the engine still runs ok with a valve down too.

 

[murran]

Not familiar with this engine but how the heck does that part make it's way from the head to the sump when it falls off?

I'm amazed the engine still runs ok with a valve down too.

its a very small part. probably about 8mm across, 2-3mm thick. the rocker is a little bigger about 30mm long hence the damage it can cause kicking about in the cam area.

its a 4 valve per cylinder engine. 2 in 2 out. its still got 1 inlet valve opening so it'll run ok.

 

[brinks]

Ah, thanks. Looks huge in the photos above!

 

[murran]

Ah, thanks. Looks huge in the photos above!

alex in future could you add something in your photos to give people not familiar with these engine parts some sort of scale? a 2p? a pack of fags? a fish finger?

 

[AlexGSi2000]

The v6 engine has a very linear power output and feels slow when in fact it isn't ! what car is your mate used to drive ?

Volvo S60R - he also has a re-mapped Passat 1.8T (180bhp) which "feels" quicker - but I guess this is due to the reasons you mentioned.
Do you know if there is a torque limiter on these? - there doesn't seem to be any real pull until 3rd gear.

 

[AlexGSi2000]

alex in future could you add something in your photos to give people not familiar with these engine parts some sort of scale? a 2p? a pack of fags? a fish finger?

Hah, yeah will do - just wanted to get some up-close pictures to show wear.

 

[adamss24]

Volvo S60R - he also has a re-mapped Passat 1.8T (180bhp) which "feels" quicker - but I guess this is due to the reasons you mentioned.
Do you know if there is a torque limiter on these? - there doesn't seem to be any real pull until 3rd gear.

The v6 tdi is geared for stump pulling/towing and not for drag racing, if they would not give it the low range then it would have put to shame many a petrol "fast" cars ! If you want to go fast then you need to skip the first gear altogether and drop the clutch from 4000 rpm's in 2nd ! It's very hard on the clutch/driveline but it will go like a scalded cat ! For some reasons the 01E gearbox fitted in the older b5 quattro sport has much taller gears and feels completely different to the b6 'box. The worse ones are the allroad manual gearboxes, they do 90 Mph at 3000rpm's which in the normal v6 tdi box it will do over 100Mph !

 

[AlexGSi2000]

If you want to go fast then you need to skip the first gear altogether and drop the clutch from 4000 rpm's in 2nd ! It's very hard on the clutch/driveline but it will go like a scalded cat !

I bet! - I think I will let the credit card recover from the cost of the cams before I try that...