Effects of an EU Exit?
- Thread starter glamic26
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OK that's up to you, but could it not be moved to a more general forum rather than being in the 8V forum. The moderators are often moving threads from one form to another as they have nothing to do with a particular model.
Scottyg
Registered User
I'm getting more confused with it by the day. If I'm getting confused, and I'm pretty up to date with politics, how does a layman come to make a decision??
This is where the 'strike fear' deal comes in with each of the campaigns! Fear triggers a response one way or the other. Fear of leaving because of x,y and z or staying in because of a,b or c!
It's whatever way you fear the most!
This is where the 'strike fear' deal comes in with each of the campaigns! Fear triggers a response one way or the other. Fear of leaving because of x,y and z or staying in because of a,b or c!
It's whatever way you fear the most!
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What will the effects be of an EU exit..?
I don't know. What I do know is, there is a political class, worldwide, that will move onto the next way that they can manipulate the masses for their own ends which is to continue in power. (And controlling all the wealth).
I think if we leave, the whole Euro project runs a very real risk of caving in on itself and the in-fighting will begin.
It's going to be an interesting few years.
I don't know. What I do know is, there is a political class, worldwide, that will move onto the next way that they can manipulate the masses for their own ends which is to continue in power. (And controlling all the wealth).
I think if we leave, the whole Euro project runs a very real risk of caving in on itself and the in-fighting will begin.
It's going to be an interesting few years.
I fear jobsworth bureaucrats telling me if I am being relevant and where I can do certain stuff
I do agree with your point......but technically we are classed as having free movement of people under EU law [/nit picking mode].
It's also worth remembering that as an EU citizen (even UK / non Shengen), you only need to show your passport once when you enter the Schengen area and can then still move about freely.
That's the crux.
We are having to take a yes or no vote, when there are hundreds of issues.
Some better in, some better out, some about equal......and most unknown.
The only thing I do know, is that if we had a 3rd option vote of a much improved EU - then that would probably win hands down.
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Scottyg
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Yip. As I said above. 3 option, yes or no plus as you say get a hell of a lot changed. Jaunker will never allow that to happen. He is a out and out EU fanatic simply as it gives him a voice which otherwise he wouldn't have! He loves the EU as it gives a tiny cog like Luxumberg a say in the running of a massive machine. Power hungry man!
I can't lend much more to the debate than others have already put, but I do work as a medical statistician and would like to point out that whatever impact immigration has on the NHS, it frankly pales in comparison to the effect of a rapidly ageing population. This is the single biggest issue faced by the NHS, not only because it increases the sheer number of people who need the service, but its a particular demographic that demands a huge amount of resources from the service.
Couple this with the fact they are also non-working and therefore no longer contributing to the state (obviously would have done over their working life), they are for want of a better phase, a rather large burden to a public run health care system. I say this with utmost respect to the elderly people as they are stunning people that have often given more in their lives than we all likely we be able to in ours.
If anything, I can only see immigration as a way of massively helping this, and in the interest of properly caring for our elderly population, the notion that they should all be kicked out is quite frightening. Not only are EU migrants contributing to the state (as pointed out, statistically less likely than UK residents to claim benefits), they are also filling a huge amount of jobs in social and health care sectors that were in massive deficit in 2004. I believe this was a major reason for the acceptance of the EU free-movement (well...not entirely free but you know) by Blair.
Of course there is an argument that the government (in particular this current government) should be doing more to increase native UK workers in the health care sector (such as not slashing nurse bursary schemes, etc.), the role of immigration for the NHS I think seems pretty vital, especially as the ageing population is only set to increase further in the coming years.
Any way, some great posts and debate here guys thanks
Scottyg
Registered User
It's great to see this debate coming from many different areas of the job market. Like the above post on the NHS, puts things into perspective from someone who actually knows and it's not from people just speculating.
Since I work in eduction, where I am we have seen no impact on school places or 'influx' of migrants from any country in or out the EU more than normal. I do remember a kid who came to us from Lithuania with very little English in S1 and left with a Higher English A Grade in S6. I have a kid who is from French Guiana via Portugal and Spain. He is 13 years old and can speak French, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and English. His English is better than most who's English is their first language. He wants to be an Astro Physicist. And do you know what, he will be as his work ethic is fantastic.
I can't speak for all of Scotland but I don't hear my mates who are teaching all over complain about any issues. Can't speak about England.
However, the state of the education system is another argument altogether.
Since I work in eduction, where I am we have seen no impact on school places or 'influx' of migrants from any country in or out the EU more than normal. I do remember a kid who came to us from Lithuania with very little English in S1 and left with a Higher English A Grade in S6. I have a kid who is from French Guiana via Portugal and Spain. He is 13 years old and can speak French, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and English. His English is better than most who's English is their first language. He wants to be an Astro Physicist. And do you know what, he will be as his work ethic is fantastic.
I can't speak for all of Scotland but I don't hear my mates who are teaching all over complain about any issues. Can't speak about England.
However, the state of the education system is another argument altogether.
I was hoping this thread wouldn't get too political considering it is a car forum being seeing as we are here I'll try to add my admittedly confused viewpoint.
I have absolutely nothing against immigration. I actually don't think the country can survive without it. Non-British people bring a drive and ambition that a minority of British nationals lack as well as a diversity in culture and society which I believe we should embrace. However, I do think that uncontrolled migration will eventually lead to us having far too big of a strain on our housing, education and social and health services. An increasing and ageing population are also major contributors to that strain, maybe even more so. However, they are both far harder to control. I think as a country we need to be a bit more selfish and control who is allowed to migrate in to get the best people to improve the above services to try to relieve the strain on them. Is this discriminatory? Yes. Could I live with it if it benefits us? Yes.
However ... we currently have "control" over the number of non-EU immigrants that come into the country. They number slightly higher than the number of EU immigrants each year. And so even when we do have the control perhaps we don't even use it?! So maybe leaving the EU isn't the answer to that. Without a doubt I believe our government should be focusing more on improving our social and health services as well as education and housing and they are just not doing enough. As somebody else mentioned perhaps we should be more worried about recouping the money we lose out on from tax evaders than from the EU and using that money to improve the services we have so that we can continue with the immigration numbers we have without their being a strain.
So, like I said, I am utterly confused on the point of immigration! Economy wise: I am absolutely unqualified to make such assumptions but my feeling is the the EU is holding us back in terms of our economy and that leaving the EU would certainly cause a short term economic shock but that we would recovery relatively quickly and then enjoy prosperous economic growth.
Should we even be getting this vote at all? Are any of us (including the politicians on both sides) even remotely qualified to be making this decision? Scary!
I have absolutely nothing against immigration. I actually don't think the country can survive without it. Non-British people bring a drive and ambition that a minority of British nationals lack as well as a diversity in culture and society which I believe we should embrace. However, I do think that uncontrolled migration will eventually lead to us having far too big of a strain on our housing, education and social and health services. An increasing and ageing population are also major contributors to that strain, maybe even more so. However, they are both far harder to control. I think as a country we need to be a bit more selfish and control who is allowed to migrate in to get the best people to improve the above services to try to relieve the strain on them. Is this discriminatory? Yes. Could I live with it if it benefits us? Yes.
However ... we currently have "control" over the number of non-EU immigrants that come into the country. They number slightly higher than the number of EU immigrants each year. And so even when we do have the control perhaps we don't even use it?! So maybe leaving the EU isn't the answer to that. Without a doubt I believe our government should be focusing more on improving our social and health services as well as education and housing and they are just not doing enough. As somebody else mentioned perhaps we should be more worried about recouping the money we lose out on from tax evaders than from the EU and using that money to improve the services we have so that we can continue with the immigration numbers we have without their being a strain.
So, like I said, I am utterly confused on the point of immigration! Economy wise: I am absolutely unqualified to make such assumptions but my feeling is the the EU is holding us back in terms of our economy and that leaving the EU would certainly cause a short term economic shock but that we would recovery relatively quickly and then enjoy prosperous economic growth.
Should we even be getting this vote at all? Are any of us (including the politicians on both sides) even remotely qualified to be making this decision? Scary!
Well I'm voting to ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,stay in and have a chicken and pineapple pizza, or stay out and have fish and chips, or,,,,, **** it ! I'll have both.
Chicken and pineapple pizza....!
Scottyg
Registered User
So you make some contributions, don't like the reposes and then ask for the thread to be closed or moved ...interesting!!!!!!
I am sure there are some good places to retire to and all close to some fast autobahn sections
You cannot be any farther from the truth ! When an immigrant comes to this country it lays low and pays taxes and most of the times he does not hurt a fly ! However when immigrants try to integrate and live in for 15-20 years they are still paid less than locals even though they shop at the same shops, pay the same living costs and get their kids trough the same schools like anyone else ! However because Brits are lazy and don't take the low paid jobs there would be an influx of migrants parading trough this country- happened hundreds of years ago and hasn't changed yet ! In this day and age it pays to be competitive, a immigrant that has a positive attitude, says yes all the time and is willing to work hard for less money will be a priority and it can only be beneficial for the system as it brings living costs in line with the rest of EU countries ! You would not need 3 grand a month to live decent if it will cost you a grand a month to live well however this expensive lifestyle needs to be perpetuated and only by high living costs can be achieved ! Regards,
Chris- a proud immigrant that came in Britain full of energy 17 years ago NOT to milk the system !!!
Scottyg
Registered User
Ok, I've decided. Done a lot of reading today and this link was the final piece. I'm OUT
Unsure how to vote? This incisive verdict from the Spectator may help
http://dailym.ai/1YxRk2J
Unsure how to vote? This incisive verdict from the Spectator may help
http://dailym.ai/1YxRk2J
chucking in some perspective from another industry here.
Shipbuilding: We've recently had a bunch of guys in from somewhere in eastern europe (can't remember exactly where) only a couple of them speak english but they seem like decent guys. the only issue i have is they're doing the job for £8 a hour, all the local guys are on £12-17 a hour depending on if they're on the books or temp so they're now all getting priced out of their own jobs.
They're doing the same job to more or less the same quality for a lot less money, i can see why the company would get these guys in but it's putting local guys in our own communities out of work. Then they're back off home again when the job is done thanks to freedom of movement so the money isn't even getting spent here.
I've spoke to their leading hand before about their wages etc, he said the £8 a hour they're getting paid is tripple what they would earn back at home so they're winning, the company is winning, our local lads who have always earnt a good wage for a skilled trade are losing out.
Will that change if we vote out? who knows. chances are to sign a trade treaty with europe we will end up having to sign back up to freedom of movement for labour anyways.
Shipbuilding: We've recently had a bunch of guys in from somewhere in eastern europe (can't remember exactly where) only a couple of them speak english but they seem like decent guys. the only issue i have is they're doing the job for £8 a hour, all the local guys are on £12-17 a hour depending on if they're on the books or temp so they're now all getting priced out of their own jobs.
They're doing the same job to more or less the same quality for a lot less money, i can see why the company would get these guys in but it's putting local guys in our own communities out of work. Then they're back off home again when the job is done thanks to freedom of movement so the money isn't even getting spent here.
I've spoke to their leading hand before about their wages etc, he said the £8 a hour they're getting paid is tripple what they would earn back at home so they're winning, the company is winning, our local lads who have always earnt a good wage for a skilled trade are losing out.
Will that change if we vote out? who knows. chances are to sign a trade treaty with europe we will end up having to sign back up to freedom of movement for labour anyways.
Really well made argument here. Thats the thing, its all very well me saying immigration is OK, but I'm not blind to the fact that I happen to work and live in places where immigration has very little impact. It effects peoples jobs and communities in different ways.
I think the most pertinent question is, which you rightly highlight, does leaving the EU solve any of it...?
I'm finding it really hard to decide still....Controlling EU migration and increasing British sovereignty are two very compelling arguments from the leave side, while economic stability, access to the EU trade market and increased global unity by belonging to a collective EU are very compelling arguments for the remain side....
Anoter point to make: If we do stay in all is rosey nothing will change blahblah. what happens if France or Germany leave? I haven't looked in to it personally but i've been told there is quite a bit of civil unrest over there and people are starting to say that they want a vote on their membership to the EU as well. I may be completelly talking out of my *** here, it's only what i've been told. But if they do leave and the EU collapses and we're still in it, i should imagine the hit we'll take then will be a lot harder than if we leave now.
All speculation unless someone can see into the future. We'll definitely see a short term hit to the economy, strength of the pound etc if we leave, but who knows if we'll bounce back.
All speculation unless someone can see into the future. We'll definitely see a short term hit to the economy, strength of the pound etc if we leave, but who knows if we'll bounce back.
Scottyg
Registered User
@Lavis89 you are quite right. The EU is very unpopular in a number of European countries. If we go, Denmark will go, closely followed by France, Italy and Spain. Greece will stick two fingers up to Germany and walk away as well. As you say, it will leave an utter sh1t bomb for whoever is left. I'm definitely out. The above article that I posted a link too clinched it for me.
