In terms of handling - S3 or GTI?

[SamurAchzar]

Hey all,

I'm planning to purchase an S3 soon. Originally, I wanted the GTI, and I have driven one (friends) extensively. However, the GTI is no longer exclusive around here (and I like being special!), and more importantly, I want a little more power and to have something that's not FWD for a change.

Honestly, I guess that were the R32 available around this part of the world I'd get it, but it's not. And besides, I really like the exterior and interior of the S3.

The only thing that worries me are the reports of the dull chassis and little feedback. I consider myself as a pretty skilled, aggressive driver (had Rallye driving training, do autocrosses on occasions and so on). I felt I could certainly get near the limits of the GTI on a twisting mountain road, and hell, that was so much fun.
The GTI, for me, is a near perfect car. It's so balanced and has a great sense of quality to it. Everything aspect of it was beautifully engineered. It's responsive, can be thrown around, DSG is great on such driving and so on.

Now, I have no doubts that the S3 is faster, and likely to destroy almost everything on autocrosses (trouble is the AWD puts me in the same category as Evos, er ).

But does it have the same tactillity of the GTI when pushed to the limits? Is it really fun?
Also, can you use the Quattro to slide around in the same way you could do with a STI or EVO?

So forget the money and the horsepower differences for a moment and just tell me if the car is real fun compared to other sportscar, and mainly, the GTI.

Thanks! :icon_thumright:

 

[Spook]

The only thing that worries me are the reports of the dull chassis and little feedback.

Er, not according to Autocar. See this link:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsHistory/Audi-A3-S3/224171/

 

[SamurAchzar]

It seems like Autocar were the only ones to think so. Car magazine totally dismissed it ("The S3 is not fun"), others thought the chassis is a little dull.

 

[Hotscar]

Well if you can't take the autocar review as a positive and are as busy as you are concentrating on the negatives, it sounds like you've already made your mind up...either test drive an S3 soon or enjoy your GTI.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The thing is, I don't have the opportunity for a test drive (they don't do that with the S3 here), and I'm quite familiar with the GTI; Surely there's been someone here who's driven both.

I've read all press reviews that are available, I think, and the S3 seems like a mixed bag. I want to know I'm doing the right decision. I really want it, just need to make sure I won't be disappointed.

 

[Staz]

I have driven both however not extensively the GTI but I know I felt far more in control in the S3. Perhaps dynamically on a track the GTI would be better by all accounts but the S3s power and quattro just blast it past. Day to day driving isn't gonna make you regret an S3. Ask any of the S3 owner here. They all rave about them.

And you can slide in a quattro

 

[prt57]

I have driven the GTI, R32 and the S3 and after much deliberation over the GTi and R32 bought the S3.
When you are spending this sort of money you should look at all aspects of the car.
The GTI goes well enough but I was expecting more power. Handling is fine but I think the quality of the interior is cheap in comparison the MK IV 1.8T GTI that I own.
I really wanted to like the R32 as it has a fantastic exhaust note. Again I was expecting more power and the interior was the same as the GTI.
I drove the S3 for about 50 miles on a variety of roads then went back to the dealer and ordered one!!
I have no issues with the handling and it really goes like stink when you put your foot down. Interior quality excellent.

prt

 

[Amchlolor]

The fact you're even mentioning the GTi in the same breath as the S3 says it all.
If the Gti even comes close,why bother with the extra £7k (minimum) for an S3 ?
Why not just get the Gti and save the money ?
If there was a massive gulf,I'd understand the extra expense.
You're saying there probably isn't,so it's should be a no-brainer.

It's all very confusing that people consider the GTi a competitor to the S3,then say things like "cheap interior".
What do you expect for £7k less ?

Sorry,but if anyone considers the GTi a close competitor to the S3,but still spends the money on an S3,then they must have money to burn.
Those that don't think the GTi comes close,fair enough,that's a whole different ball game.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I don't think the GTI interior is "cheap" by any means, but that's maybe because I'm used to lesser cars (econoboxes...). I finally have the financial opportunity to get something nice.

Anyway, car purchasing is something emotional; I love the S3 for the way it looks in and out, it's exclusivity, the Quattro and the additional power.
I'm willing to pay the difference in such case, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the fun. I'd be a really, really bitter man if I'd come to my favorite road with the S3 only to discover I'd much rather have a GTI at that moment..

 

[Staz]

In that case you need to try before you buy. And if you can't try then don't buy. Do not spend over 27k on a car you've never driven. That's just nuts. I'm sure nearly everyone who has driven one has wanted to fill out the order form there and then, but obviuosly it's YOU that needs to be happy.

 

[normski]

Magazine reviews are strange beasts, and it is difficult to find reviews that are overly positive about the S3, with the majority saying that for £2,000 less you can have an R32 (put leather in it and you are looking at the same price pretty much).

Equally, the mags aren't generally positive about the S4, S6, S8. I read a review of the S6 the other day which described it as blisteringly fast, amazing handling, never puts a foot wrong etc., wonderful interior and build quality etc. and that sums it up by saying the car is too perfect, well refined etc and just not involving enough to drive...*** for that money I would want it to be lightning but luxurious.

I think the problem is that these guys all like to feel like a racing driver for every second they are at the wheel, so when they get into something of a bit more quality and the "roughness" of fast driving is dumbed down, then they think it is bad...personally I want a bit of sophistication about my car whilst it is still blisteringly fast. Christ, I drove a 335i the other day and nearly fell asleep, but is it ****...hell no.

I too started off looking at the Gti, having been a VW man since puberty. I drove it, loved it, despite torque steering, road noise, cheaper interiors than the MkIV etc. Then I arrived back at the dealer to see an R32, wow, took it for a drive, great handling on the road (the extra weight of the 3.2 made it feel more secure to me),beautiful engine noise and exhaust note, same interior, great looks and £4,000 more with the only downsides being fuel economy was awful and an amazing flat spot in the high 80's and early 90's.

I then drove the S3 and 2.0TFSI, unfortunately in that order so the 2.0 never stood a chance.

The S3 felt beautiful inside, it had the same exhaust not as the GTi which I liken to a fake V6(I know what I mean), and so much performance just about everywhere in the speed range. And I loved the 60/40 r/f set up of the 4WD, which the R32 or 2.0 couldn't get close to (the R32 may have this ratio, but it felt front biased to me). I felt like I was in a different class of vehicle to be honest.

Everything about the 2.0 just felt sloppy after the S3, but a £5,000 less I am sure it is a great car.

On another day I have test driven the R32 and S3 back to back. I still love the R32, it looks gorgeous, but specced up it would cost me the same as the S3 specced to my liking, and £30,000 for a Golf seems to me even more mad than £30,000 for an S3 (I have tried to talk my self into an A4 Avant several times just to feel like I am getting my money's worth).

All this left me with a choice, save £6,000 and get the GTi and drive a common car....or an S3 that on the 8L shape and currently this shape are rare as RHS, that will cost me £30 per month more on finance per month because of its projected residuals.

I made my choice as I like the sophistication of the S3 and great performance and handling. I still think the Golf Gti is a great car though, a bit more coarse would be how I would describe it, which is quite clearly what the general motoring press like when they play with a car.

 

[Spin140]

I've not driven the S3 but can only imagine how well it goes, I had a MKV GTi which was superb and tuned to 252bhp before I finally decided to sell. I can say that although the S3 is understated to the untrained eye in comparison to the GTi it wins hands down in terms of looks and general appearance. Yes, it's considered expensive but IMO worth the extra money for the exclusivity offered as well as the far superior interior quality. The GTi is indeed a fantastic car to drive and I have to admit was more than enough car for my driving talents but in the wet it's limits were realised fairly easily whereas I imagine the quattro on the S3 would enable more all year round performance exploits, I found the A3 S-line had lighter steering than the GTi but still provided adequate feel and the chasis far from dull so the S3 with its factory modifications can only improve on this, if you can afford it have something different to your mates - I'd go for the S3

 

[Amchlolor]

Yes,it's considered expensive but IMO worth the extra money for the exclusivity offered as well as the far superior interior quality.

Well the S3 interior is more or less the same as mine.
The GTi's interior is more or less the same as the Golf GT we have here.
Saying the A3's is "far superior" is a bit of a stretch.
It's hardly the difference between a Pugget 206 and a Bentley.
There are some things I like in both cars,they're not poles apart.

Even the "exclusivity" bit is arguable as,to the untrained eye,it looks like any other A3 and they're common as a-holes,up here anyway.

If people like the S3,fair enough I've no particular problem with that.
The fact the GTi is being considered a worthy competitor,but £7K less (minimum,remember) is testament to how good a car the GTi is though.

I'd love a GTi,but the CO2 (and therefore company car tax) is horrendous.
Personally,I wouldn't buy an S3 even if I did have the money,or if the company allowed it.
At that level of spend,there's umpteen other cars I'd rather have.

 

[Boydie]

what about the new anniversary gti if it already hasnt been mentioned?? 220/230bhp, bodykit, new wheels, interior etc...

what part of the world are you from if you can get a gti but not a R32??

if you go for the s3 and think its not fun....tune it! 330bhp is now possibly from MTM - a simple remap will bring you up to at least 290bhp if more

 

[a3guy]

have you considered the new leon cupra ?

 

[normski]

Personally,I wouldn't buy an S3 even if I did have the money,or if the company allowed it.
At that level of spend,there's umpteen other cars I'd rather have.

Such as?

 

[Boydie]

a mitsi evo 8/9
low miler e46 m3
lower miler e46 330cd m sport

those are some of the cars id like to own at some point that are in that price range and a lot lower!

 

[Amchlolor]

Such as?

Dunno,I'd have to give it some serious thought.
My first thought is an Alpina BMW D3 with 200bhp diesel engine.

The trouble with the S3's pricing is that you're into the sort of spending territory that means you can suddenly cross over into vehicles that aren't available for less money.
You could suddenly start looking at Volvo XC90's,for example.
I'd like one of them,but I can't get one for A3 tdi money.
My MD has a lovely S-type Jag sport which I'd rather have over an S3 too.

You may not agree with my choices,but the point is £27-£32K (depending on spec) gives a prospective buyer a world of choice that means the likes of me will dismiss the S3 outright.

I like performance,but for that sort of money you can get performance combined with practicality and luxury.
Some may argue the S3 is practical,but practical,to me,means 3 doors is a complete no-go.
Have friends/family clamber into the back of a car ?
No ta...

It's performance,whilst impressive,does not make up for the 'lack of car' you're getting,if you get my drift.
A real lack of metal-for-money.

 

[SamurAchzar]

bowfer, while listing the XC90 as a possible substitute for the S3 at its price, you've basically demonstrated that there aren't too many options.

As for BMW, I'm not sure at all a 3 series would be better than the S3, and for it's price, you can't get a too good of a 3 series anyway. If you're looking at 4 doors, that's another issue altogether.

An Evo is a completely different ballgame. Better performance, sure, but nowhere near the same pleasure when driving day in, day out.

If anything, the real opposition of the S3 comes from below its price. Hot hatches have become quite good, and in the case of the GTI, I'd dare to say "too good" as far as buying a more expensive car goes. Suddenly, the threshold of the "diminishing returns" has been set at the 20K bracket - in my eyes at least.

 

[Amchlolor]

bowfer, while listing the XC90 as a possible substitute for the S3 at its price, you've basically demonstrated that there aren't too many options.

Eh ?
That was just one example.
What do you want me to do,list every other car in the £27K-£32K bracket,new or nearly new ?
There must be scores,if not hundreds.
The XC90 was just an example of the sort of cross over vehicle that people might consider.
Bloke looks at S3...hang on,says the missus,for £28K we can have a nearly new XC90...can we,says the bloke....oh...

 

[SamurAchzar]

Eh ?
That was just one example.
What do you want me to do,list every other car in the £27K-£32K bracket,new or nearly new ?
There must be scores,if not hundreds.

Let's put it this way - you need to compare apples with apples if you think the S3 isn't good value; Find another vehicle with S3-like qualities and performance for the same price. The XC90 hardly qualifies...

I mean, would you say a Boxster is overpriced because you could get a Cayenne at a similar price?

 

[Amchlolor]

Let's put it this way - you need to compare apples with apples if you think the S3 isn't good value; Find another vehicle with S3-like qualities and performance for the same price. The XC90 hardly qualifies...

I mean, would you say a Boxster is overpriced because you could get a Cayenne at a similar price?

If you are going to narrow down your search criteria to high performance 3 doors with 4 wheel drive,then I would agree the S3 is the only choice.

Buyers,including myself,don't work like that though.
When they have that much money,they don't have to compare apples with apples.
They can suddenly throw in oranges,peaches,cumquats,star fruit,mangos etc.etc.

Yes,I would say a boxster if over-priced if you can get a Cayenne for the same money.
The Cayenne will be more useful to me more of the time.
I'd still have a quick car,but I could take friends in it.
The boxster is too focused,as is the S3.

That's what people face when spending £27k-£32K (ish) on an S3.
They are faced with a choice of cars that may be more useful to them,more of the time,rather than a pretty focused,and therefore limited,car.

 

[Staz]

I agree.

The main rivals obviously are the GTI, R32 and 130.

For what it is the GTI is a fantastic car, yes it is being compared to a car 7k more expensive so that must make it extra special. But it has it's limitations. FWD being the main one. Lack of power perhaps too.

The R32 is there to fill that gap. Better peformance and 4WD yeah, and 5k more. And it's still a golf.

130, I don't know a lot about but I know it's more than a grand cheaper than the S3 (for the 130i) but the same power from an NA engine although it's slightly slower off the mark. RWD, if you like that. However it's not exactly great looking is it?

The S3 fills ALL those gaps, as well as taking a good looking car and making it even better, whilst also being understated.

Yeah it costs the most, but do you want a great hot hatch?....or the best.


EDIT: And lets not forget it's a very tuneable turbo engine

 

[Amchlolor]

Yeah it costs the most, but do you want a great hot hatch?....or the best.

Who says it's the best ?
If it was 'the best',there wouldn't be an argument.
I've yet to see any group test that says the S3 is 'the best'.
It scores on some points,it loses on others.
It isn't even the best compromise,never mind 'the best'.

 

[SamurAchzar]

If you are going to narrow down your search criteria to high performance 3 doors with 4 wheel drive,then I would agree the S3 is the only choice.

Buyers,including myself,don't work like that though.
When they have that much money,they don't have to compare apples with apples.
They can suddenly throw in oranges,peaches,cumquats,star fruit,mangos etc.etc.

Yes,I would say a boxster if over-priced if you can get a Cayenne for the same money.
The Cayenne will be more useful to me more of the time.
I'd still have a quick car,but I could take friends in it.
The boxster is too focused,as is the S3.

That's what people face when spending £27k-£32K (ish) on an S3.
They are faced with a choice of cars that may be more useful to them,more of the time,rather than a pretty focused,and therefore limited,car.

I see your point, however, I think that for many S3 buyers, the performance is a prerequisite - at the very least, for those that upgraded from STi/Evos or other, less refined hot hatches. For these people, something like the XC90 isn't an option, as it fails on all accounts of dynamism or performance.

 

[Staz]

I don't think it's been in a group test yet. And group tests will always take cost into consideration and frankly I'm not at the moment.

None of us have really driven ALL of the hatches for great amounts of time so we can't say for certain. But for me I don't even consider a FWD car viable for the trophy.

I have driven a few hatches, including my previous CTR. Considered to be a fantasic car by many. But I didn't think it handled very well at all and it couldn't cope with 200 screaming horses, and nor can any FWD. But the S3 does.

I don't want to start a "which is the best hatch argument" cos it's pointless. You'll never get everyone to agree on one. There's too many factors. You could've picked up a clio 182 cup for 12k odd and an S3 is more than double, and I'm damned sure in the right hands a clio would be on your tail round a track. But I'd always miss that huge power surge from the S3, especially on the motorways and A roads. And frankly that's where we drive day to day.

If money is an issue then get a clio. A bit more to spend then a GTI but if you can afford it then the S3 is the way forward. And for 500 quid more lets make that a 300bhp S3, with the chassis and powertrain to cope with that power as standard.

 

[Amchlolor]

I don't think it's been in a group test yet.

I've seen at least one.
The S3 was put up against a 225 Megane,Gti,VXR and Mazda MPS.

 

[Staz]

What mag? How did it go?

 

[prt57]

When I refered to the cheaper interior I was comparing the GTI/R32 to the MK IV Golf GTI/R32
VW cut some corners in my opinion on the MKV.
Put it this way, I was looking at the R32 for 9 months before the S3 came on the scene. I just could not say yes to the VW salesman!!

 

[JamS3]

What mag? How did it go?

Just forget the mag, possibly CAR...

The S3 came best on 0-60, 0-100, time around the track tested, top speed on the test track.

Went into the second round and came second overall on points to the Megane R26. HOWEVER they divided the final score by purchase price of the car so the S3 didn't reaaly have a look in but did well to come second.

Not really a fair test to see which is the best hot hatch...

 

[Irish]

hi mate.. I've had two MKV GTIs with 18s and now on the S3.

The GTI is a fun car but the FWD limits it.

The initial reports when the Golf and A3 came out said the Golf had a better chassis but in the S3 the tweaks they have done for the S model kinda seperates those inital reviews I think.

You can power slide the S3 all day long if you like, even with ESP on, you can push it a LOT more than the GTI purely because of Quattro. You can't drive a GTI fast the way you can drive the S3 fast. Handling, power and brakes are all in a different league.

The steering was slightly more responsive in the GTI but it's the only one positive the GTI has over the S3 from my experience of driving nearly 50,000 kms in all 3 cars combined and it's not even that big a deal as it's only ever so slightly better.

 

[Staz]

I've heard good things about the megane but it's a hideous car too. And french. At least the clio was uber cheap so if it fell apart from thrashing it you didn't care.

Many people say if money was no object. Try looking at it this way...

If they were all 27k which would you rather have?

 

[newbiecrg]

I think I will be happy with my choice... S3! Test drivw the S3, mate, make your own mind. On the day I was buying a 3.2 TT I saw the S3 demo car and asked for a test drive... after that... didn't even remembered the TT!!

Pedro

P.S.: Best to test drive, one is not better thsn the other, it's all relative. You might prefer the driving of the GTI compared to the S3 as other prefer the smoothness of the Mercedes compared with the boneshaking BMWs... in the end it is a matter of personal choice... We're not talking race cars here!! Everyday cars I assume...

 

[normski]

If you are going to narrow down your search criteria to high performance 3 doors with 4 wheel drive,then I would agree the S3 is the only choice.

Buyers,including myself,don't work like that though.

That's how I work so I am very pleased that you agree with me that the S3 is the only choice and I have done the right thing. :icon_thumright:

 

[Staz]

That's how I work so I am very pleased that you agree with me that the S3 is the only choice and I have done the right thing. :icon_thumright:

lol yes you have norm!

 

[normski]

I can fully understand Bowfer's argument about choice in this price bracket...if you wanted to buy a vehicle and had £27,000 to £30,000 ish to spend, there are a myriad of possibilities.

However for me, I assume like most people who are looking at GTi's, R32's etc. I am after something fast, fun, quality and sporty with a certain amount of practicality.

Not once have I contemplated having either an S3 or a loaded Galaxy or used X5, I have contemplated similar cars in a wide variety of price brackets.

I tried the new 3 coupe which cost even more, with less poke and surprisingly less prcaticality, because the back is tiny, but only because it may have fitted into the 3-door sporty sector that I am after.

If you could happily have any car at this price bracket and be happy, then I doubt the S3 is for you. I would however say that for upto this sort of money, the S3 is up there with the best as an overall 3/5-dr relatively practicle and good quality bullet...it may not be the best at everything, but overall it is pretty hard to beat, if you ignore the price.

Now the important bit...very few people on here will be paying cash, they will be buying on finance and more than likely a PCP, Lease Purchase or Balanced Payments.

Simple question...if you can have an S3 for £20-40 per month more than a Golf Gti or similar car costing £7,000 ish less, which would you do?

The price difference suddenly disappears and you can just compare the cars and forget the BS.

I think that anyone who is confused about buying an S3, a 4x4, a bus or an estate isn't ready to buy, and should take their time.

At the end of the day, I think that the Gti is a great car, as is the R32, as is the new Civic Type R (the only three similar motors I have tried lately) and if they floats your boat then great, I would love to have one. But I have made my choice, it just seems that this has developed into another "knock the A3/S3 thread" and anyone buying one is a muppet.

 

[Chins]

Like Irish, Ive also owned a MKV GTI. I'm however not its greatest fan. I chopped my GTI in for a Chav Astra VXR. I prefered the astra to the GTI. The GTI was just dull. Its very competent and good at everything, but it was never fun and IMHO underpowered.

About the discussion of choice at £22-30k, there is quite a bit out there and thats what I set my budget at when I sold my MK2 TT. However when you start looking a costs etc the choice narrows down. The 3 series is a depreciation disaster and the runflats horrible - I own a 320d at by business so have exposure to it. I looked at the 325d, but it felt flat performance wise. The A4 is another heavily depreciating car and coming to the end of its life. The 1 series is uglier than Jo Brand and also quick at losing value.

I did think about the Golf again, GTI and R32, but memories of the dull GTI but that out of the window and when you add Leather, Xenons etc to match the S3 spec its expensive. The R32 is nice, but emmisions are high (my company car tax) and by the time I'd spec'd it up it was more expensive than my S3.

The S3 was my choice due to the exclusivity of the car (how many Golfs and 3 series do you see!). Exclusivity should also lead to good residuals. The peformance as std, with the ability to tune easily - again its desirability will be high due to this feature. There is a touch of class the S models have that Golfs dont. Washed and waxed mine yesterday and it looks stunning.

Negatives - it not the smoothest car to drive. Changing gear could just be that much nicer - juggling revs and the clutch to ensure passengers are not sick.

Jonathan

 

[baldrick]

I'd love a GTi,but the CO2 (and therefore company car tax) is horrendous.

It is all relative. The C02 for a 200bhp petrol is remarkably low compared with previous generation engines. Such that the GTI is about the same level as a 2.7TDI Audi. Although for some reason the same 2.0T FSI engine in the A3 is a band lower, prety much equalling out the difference in rrp.

Unless you have a very good opt out a GTI on the company is still cheaper than financing it yourself.

Of course you could save more money going for a 2.0TDI but that is whole different debate.

The belief that warm petrols are a no no from a company car perspective comes from company car drivers who have been used to having cars as a perk and are looking to spend as little as possible of their own cash (which I can quite understand) as the regulations have changed. Plus the differential of buying diesels changes than from buying privately.

However, if you really want a petrol and a resonable quick one then the 2.0T FSI is a very tax efficient choice...

Personally,I wouldn't buy an S3 even if I did have the money,or if the company allowed it.

...unlike 4WD which has a big impact on company car tax.

The problem with GTIs for car fleets though is the lack of discounts VW will give on these models. For the fleet manager the more expensive Audis will probably end up being cheaper. For this reason GTIs are a less attractive company car and often not on the available list.

 

[stuartcalder]

I've been the proud owner of a new S3 in Sprint Blue for the past month and it's now beautifully run in at 1500 miles. The engine is superb, the gearbox like a knife through butter and the clutch light but crisp.

But, the handling..... On smooth or bumpy roads it turns in crisply and corners amazingly flat, and the sensation of the power moving from the front to the rear, when pressing on, is fantastic. However, on udulating roads at speed, the second undulation really unsettles the suspension. Going round a fast corner yesterday I hit two undulations at the apex. The first one was fine, but the second one a fraction of a second later lifted the nearside rear suspension right up and a further fraction of a second later the car was heading for the scenery! The DSC works well!! Visions of the original TT handling debacle flashed in front of my eyes.

Since then I have tried stressing the suspension on undulating (straight!) roads and it is very easy to hit the bump stops of the rear suspension at quite moderate speeds - once again, it always occurs when there are two rises in quick succession.

The Audi garage sold me the car with pressures of 39 front and 30 rear, which did seem odd as my previous S3 was equal pressures front and rear and my subsequent R32 had only 2psi difference between front and rear. Is this a mistake? I have tried upping the rear pressures and almost eradicated the rear suspension problem, but I haven't been brave enough to take it to the limit....

Has anyone else experienced this, or have any suggestion?

 

[JamS3]

Not sure what they are meant to be, have you looked inside the fuel cap?

I would but car is in the garage!