My s3 is dead :(

[Stephenhirst]

It's been a bad week for me and my s3, the engine just cut out as I was coming off a roundabout, aa came out to recover me and told me the timing belt had slipped, audi plugged it in and said the engine had over revved at 51mph, because the engine over revved it's apparently not covered by warranty and will cost £8000 to repair! So gutted!

 

[paradigital]

Over revved at 51mph, were you in 1st?

I'd be getting on to Audi UK and trying to sort out some kind of good will gesture

 

[Rob2k68]

Holy sh1t !! Sorry to read this.

Well that make a complete mockery of the warranty then. Are you looking for a used replacement from a rear ended car ?

 

[GSB]

Ouch.

51mph in 1st would be around 7600-7800 rpm? Not ideal, but hardly the most spectacular incident of over revving I've heard of.

 

[4K]

Wow. Unbelievable.

Manual or S-Tronic? How old?

 

[deanshaw24]

How old is the car? Surely if it's under 3 years old then it has to be under warranty?

 

[Retroman]

The dial rev limits are deliberately on the cautious side and engines are tested on the bench at much higher revs. For a belt to "slip" I would assume a mechanical failure of the tensioner?

 

[paradigital]

If his avatar is his actual car, it's a 14 plate, so "technically" under warranty.

I'd definitely be arguing that the cause of the over-rev was the slipping of the belt and not the other way around.

 

[deanshaw24]

Well for the engine to overev there needs to be fault. The fault will be covered under warranty! There's no way I'd be paying a dime towards a repair if the cars under warranty!!

 

[vacant]

Is it standard? Seems incredibly harsh if so.

 

[GSB]

Well for the engine to overev there needs to be fault. The fault will be covered under warranty! There's no way I'd be paying a dime towards a repair if the cars under warranty!!

Not if the fault is that of the driver, who for instance slapped it into 1st instead of 3rd on the run down to a roundabout, and revved the knackers off his engine. I use this as an example since it seems to be what Audi is aiming at, I do sympathise with the OP.

You warranty is a contract, and is conditional upon many factors, the main one being this ( I may be paraphrasing a little here);

"We'll fix or repair anything that goes wrong, just so long as it's our fault because we didn't design or build it properly. If that's the case then we're very sorry and we'll sort it out for you. But, If it breaks because you did something monumentally dumb, have the driving talent of Maureen from Driving School, broke it by driving like an utter ****, or because you have the mechanical sympathy of a caveman and just abused the thing thinking there would be no consequences, then you're on your own."

Audi, nor any other car manufacturer for that matter, does not offer a warranty against stupidity, bad luck, hangovers, innattention or abuse.

 

[NHN]

Audi UK, argue your case, nicely but firm, I'm sure they will help out & be wise to what you post on forums with your situation as Audi to read these you know

 

[GSB]

Just going back to the OP. Did Audi mention when the overrev had happened? I'm assuming data that detailed would be time stamped. If it occurred before you owned the car, then you may be able to.
a) add that to your letter to Audi UK, when you ask them to foot the bill (it was the previous owner after all)
b) make a case against the supplying dealer (if any) for selling you a car with a voided warranty.

Just doing some quick maths, 51mph in 2nd gear or higher won't lead to overrevving the engine.
51mph in 1st though, would lead to an eye watering level of rpm's that you probably remember...

 

[lfcrule1972]

Sorry to hear this, I hope you get somewhere with Audi UK....

 

[GSB]

If his avatar is his actual car, it's a 14 plate, so "technically" under warranty.

I'd definitely be arguing that the cause of the over-rev was the slipping of the belt and not the other way around.

Sadly, not possible.

The engine is electronically governed and won't over rev under its own power. It has to be driven to these higher rpm's externally through the road wheels and drivetrain. The argument that the timing belt slipping could cause the issue will be futile. Engines with cam timings that are whole degrees out of sync don't much like running. They tend to be a bit broken. Even if you can convince them to run in that state without smashing the valve gear to bits, they certainly don't like revving very much...

 

[deanshaw24]

Is shoving the gearbox in a gear too low the only way to get it to over rev?

 

[GSB]

Is shoving the gearbox in a gear too low the only way to get it to over rev?

On a standard engine, yes. On a tuned engine where the rev limiter may have been altered or even removed, than it would be possible to overrev it on the throttle.

 

[MrFlibble]

If his avatar is his actual car, it's a 14 plate, so "technically" under warranty.

I'd definitely be arguing that the cause of the over-rev was the slipping of the belt and not the other way around.

The only way to over-rev an electronically controlled engine such as this is by incorrect gear shifting. e.g. changing from 4th to 1st at high speed. In this case, the momentum of the car will be transferred through the drive train into the engine, and the ECU is powerless to change the engine's speed. Over-revving also puts considerable strain on the timing gears, so is a common cause for timing belt slip (the stress usually rips the teeth off the belt)

This is one of the reasons why I went for the S-tronic. One incorrect shift on a manual during spirited driving, and you can grenade the engine. Not such a problem on a clapped out 1.2 corsa, a bit more of an issue on a new S3.

 

[Daveotto]

I'm confused here!!!.....

Surely the rev limiter would have kicked in so any over revving would have been for only a split second, and if the limiter failed then that would be covered under warranty as it did not do what it was supposed to!!!!

Does this also mean that anyone who has been over zealous on the fun pedal and had the limiter kIck in had invalidated there warranty?

 

[MrFlibble]

I'm confused here!!!.....

Surely the rev limiter would have kicked in so any over revving would have been for only a split second, and if the limiter failed then that would be covered under warranty as it did not do what it was supposed to!!!!

Does this also mean that anyone who has been over zealous on the fun pedal and had the limiter kIck in had invalidated there warranty?

No. The engine cannot over-rev under its own power. The ECU will see the engine speed increasing, and will shut off fuel to prevent the engine speed going over the limit.

The problem is when the engine is being over-revved by an outside force (the momentum of the car, which is being transferred through an incorrectly selected gear). So, if you are driving at 50 mph in 4th gear. The engine and input shaft of the gear box are both turning at about 3000 rpm. You press the clutch disconnecting engine from gearbox. You then select 1st gear - the syncromesh in the gearbox accelerates the input shaft of the gearbox to 9000 rpm. When you release the clutch, the engine is now connected to the gearbox input shaft, with the entire momentum of the car spinning it at 9000 rpm. It doesn't matter if the ECU disables all fuel and ignition in this scenario, the engine will be being forced around at 9000 rpm by an external force over which it has no control.

 

[RAF_S7]

MrFibble pretty much nailed the explanation.

An electronic limiter is not able to overcome the mechanical stresses and power on the engine should you throw it into the wrong gear while moving forward at speed. Think about it - if it did, the engine and the car (and you!) would decelerate with excessive force, and there is a high likelihood of loosing control.

The electronic limiter prevents a heavy right foot over revving the engine in a specific gear in the first place

 

[A3_Rider]

Sort of need more facts ...

New or used?
Trade or private? from who?
Remaining warranty?
Any existing work undertaken?
Did you give an account of your story for them to reject? What did you say? Which dealer?
What actually happened?

Then you can get technical and we can help...

 

[Gordo77]

No. The engine cannot over-rev under its own power. The ECU will see the engine speed increasing, and will shut off fuel to prevent the engine speed going over the limit.

The problem is when the engine is being over-revved by an outside force (the momentum of the car, which is being transferred through an incorrectly selected gear). So, if you are driving at 50 mph in 4th gear. The engine and input shaft of the gear box are both turning at about 3000 rpm. You press the clutch disconnecting engine from gearbox. You then select 1st gear - the syncromesh in the gearbox accelerates the input shaft of the gearbox to 9000 rpm. When you release the clutch, the engine is now connected to the gearbox input shaft, with the entire momentum of the car spinning it at 9000 rpm. It doesn't matter if the ECU disables all fuel and ignition in this scenario, the engine will be being forced around at 9000 rpm by an external force over which it has no control.

Is it actually possible to get into 1st if the engine speed is too high...? Would the syncro's not stop that from happening... in the same way you can't get into reverse if you are rolling forward?

 

[MrFlibble]

Is it actually possible to get into 1st if the engine speed is too high...? Would the syncro's not stop that from happening... in the same way you can't get into reverse if you are rolling forward?

No. The whole purpose of syncros is to allow you to select a gear even if the speeds don't match. When you push on the lever to select 1st, the synchros will speed up the input shaft to whatever speed is required to match the wheel speed.

Reverse doesn't have syncros, so you won't be able to select the gear unless the unless all moving parts come into alignment, which as the input shaft is going forward, will only happen once everything has come to a complete halt.

 

[Stephenhirst]

Over revved at 51mph, were you in 1st?

I'd be getting on to Audi UK and trying to sort out some kind of good will gesture

My brother was driving, I'm away with the military, he was in second, going into 3rd but it wouldn't go so he double clutched and that's when it died on him

 

[Stephenhirst]

Ouch.

51mph in 1st would be around 7600-7800 rpm? Not ideal, but hardly the most spectacular incident of over revving I've heard of.

Wasn't in 1st, was in second, I reckon it's a software issue cos I didn't over rev it

 

[paradigital]

So he went into first not third, no wonder it wouldn't go in!

Sounds like your brother needs to stump up then, not you.

 

[Stephenhirst]

Wow. Unbelievable.

Manual or S-Tronic? How old?

Manual and 2 years

 

[Stephenhirst]

Well for the engine to overev there needs to be fault. The fault will be covered under warranty! There's no way I'd be paying a dime towards a repair if the cars under warranty!!

Personally I think it's sterling audi being ****, I'm gonna take the car back and see what I can do with it myself

 

[Stephenhirst]

The dial rev limits are deliberately on the cautious side and engines are tested on the bench at much higher revs. For a belt to "slip" I would assume a mechanical failure of the tensioner?

That's what I'm thinking

 

[Stephenhirst]

If his avatar is his actual car, it's a 14 plate, so "technically" under warranty.

I'd definitely be arguing that the cause of the over-rev was the slipping of the belt and not the other way around.

How old is the car? Surely if it's under 3 years old then it has to be under warranty?

Audi are saying because of the over rev it's not covered, I think they are just trying to get money out of me

 

[Stephenhirst]

Just going back to the OP. Did Audi mention when the overrev had happened? I'm assuming data that detailed would be time stamped. If it occurred before you owned the car, then you may be able to.
a) add that to your letter to Audi UK, when you ask them to foot the bill (it was the previous owner after all)
b) make a case against the supplying dealer (if any) for selling you a car with a voided warranty.

Just doing some quick maths, 51mph in 2nd gear or higher won't lead to overrevving the engine.
51mph in 1st though, would lead to an eye watering level of rpm's that you probably remember...

View attachment 107004

Never went into first and im the only owner of the car

 

[Stephenhirst]

I'm confused here!!!.....

Surely the rev limiter would have kicked in so any over revving would have been for only a split second, and if the limiter failed then that would be covered under warranty as it did not do what it was supposed to!!!!

Does this also mean that anyone who has been over zealous on the fun pedal and had the limiter kIck in had invalidated there warranty?

I'm thinking the rev limiter could have failed, and according to sterling audi I guess so

 

[AJB]

My brother was driving, I'm away with the military, he was in second, going into 3rd but it wouldn't go so he double clutched and that's when it died on him

Sound very much like he was in second, trying to go for third but got first by mistake. Synchro stopped it going in as easily as normal because there was a big rev increase, then he finally got it into first (maybe helped by double declutch if he blipped the throttle, may just from giving it longer and pushing harder).

He thought he was now in 3rd, brought the clutch up, and the car's momentum immediately forced the engine up to the revs needed for that speed (51mph?) in first. That caused damage and slipped timing,

The fact that he struggled with a gear change when it happened pretty much confirms to me that it was user error selecting the wrong gear... Sorry.

 

[AJB]

I'm thinking the rev limiter could have failed, and according to sterling audi I guess so

The rev limiter is effectively just part of the ecu's mapping. It's not a separate component these days. I'd be very surprised if there was a software bug that caused it to forget to apply the limit.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Going back to the OP's first post. He states timing belt, I thought the S3 has a timing chain? Is it belt or chain?

 

[S32B]

Is the car stock or has it been tuned?

 

[GSB]

...the engine just cut out as I was coming off a roundabout...

...My brother was driving, I'm away with the military...

So, who was driving, and what really happened?

There's little in the way of real facts and data for us to hang a challenge to Audi on so far, and what little there is is conflicting. If your story has this many holes in it when you go to Audi you'll get nowhere.

 

[f1nny]

Really sorry to hear about your car.

Having experienced the same thing 9 years in my Saxo VTS (no S3 I know) I totally feel your pain.

Mine was due to me trying to change from 3rd gear @ 7000rpm to 4th gear but instead I went into second. Rev needle bounced right past the limiter along with a mighty jolt forward. My belt didn't snap but I managed to smash the pistons ibto exhaust outlet valves. It also worn out the bearings in my gearbox due to the rpm it was subjected to which was something like 13000rpm.

Here's a video (not my car) just to give people an idea.

 

[Gordo77]

So, who was driving, and what really happened?

There's little in the way of real facts and data for us to hang a challenge to Audi on so far, and what little there is is conflicting. If your story has this many holes in it when you go to Audi you'll get nowhere.

Agree, you'll need to be sharp, clear and concise when speaking to Audi if you're looking for help with this. However, if it really is down to user error, I'm not sure they will help, sorry to say.