N/A inlet Cam

[S3AMJ]

Hi All,

So I’m concerned weather I have the right N/A inlet cam for my hybrid build. @superkarl has brought to my attention that I may not have the right one. There are 3 variations of the N/A inlet cam. ADR is the one you want however at the end of the part numbers is D / F and K.

The only thing I can find in terms of identifying the cam I have is that (0581) DE W14 is on the centre lobe and (AG) is on the lobe between the centre and cog side.

Can anyone help out if this is the correct inlet cam. I was expecting a digital Caliper gauge to turn up today but it hasn’t so I can’t get any measurements.

From doing a side by side comparison with pictures I’ve found on the net from other who have the (correct) ADR inlet cam it looks identical.

Thanks,

Ash


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[S3AMJ]

After much much reading...

I’ve narrowed it down to the difference in intake cams that are related to the engine power, large port or small port heads and VVT or non VVT.

The engine I bought has the following -

Small Port Head
VVT
Plastic inlet manifold to aluminium

This looks like it’s likely going to be the K or F intake cam.

Which is good in some instance because these two are the desirable intake cams.

However I need to do some more digging around to confirm which one I have.

The stamp in the centre of the cam where I read (0581) beginning of the part number, followed by the correct code (Letter) I thought I saw a (T) marked next the the DE, which could have mistakingly been an (F)

If it is the (F) then I’d have the correct ADR intake cam. Annoyingly I don’t have it in front of me until a couple weeks time now.

By measuring the Lobes I’m hoping to get 8.41mm which again will confirm that I’ve got either the F or K cam. The only difference between these two cams is the n.OT.



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[Stuart B]

Does the NA cam move the power band from 3-5.5k to 4.5-7.5k

 

[S3AMJ]

Does the NA cam move the power band from 3-5.5k to 4.5-7.5k

From what I’ve researched mate I don’t think it moves the powerband as much as that. Apparently you get a bit more low down (out of boots) drivability. It’s really only an application for hybrid or small (big turbo) setups. Nothing’s gained with the bigger turbos which you would expect if the powerband moves as much as you mentioned. Although Tuffty did see a 20bhp gain when he had them in his car..... but that was both intake and exhaust cams I believe.


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[Prawn]

Wrong end of the stick there AMJ.

The NA cams give you less bottom end, and allow the engine to flow better at the top end.

Baby little things such as stock turbos and hybrids cant make use of this flow, so the net gain is basically nothing.

Bigger turbos can make use of the extra flow and stand to gain a good amount at the top end, although low down and midrange does suffer very slightly.

As for part numbers, I have no idea, I just bought some cams from a 20v passat and threw them in and got great results on my GT30.

 

[S3AMJ]

Ah..... Nick, basically I’ve wasted my time and money then?

I was under the impression that the intake cam from the N/A ADR providing its the correct (F) cam was going to aid with a small (big) turbo, hybrid set up.

I’ve read a few threads which has confirmed this and Bill ran it in his Lupo when he had the AET Hybrid fitted that helped in his case.

Obviously I’m just trying to replicate best case scenario what Bill had on his Lupo at the time.




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[S3AMJ]

This thread in particular caught my attention, but yeah it would seem your right with the powerband shifting right @Stuart B and @Prawn but with that said, it may help in my case like it did similarly to Bill.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/possible-na-inlet-cam-swap.294763/

Probably due to the fact the AET k04 Hybrid is more capable than previous K04 Hybrids? But otherwise no real gains would have been had, which you quite rightly said.

 

[Prawn]

I ran na Cams with my 064, and as a pair I loved them. As an Inlet cam only I wasn't so keen.

You havnt wasted your money certainly. I'd run them on some Combo or another. I much prefer the delivery they get and better top end.

 

[S3AMJ]

I ran na Cams with my 064, and as a pair I loved them. As an Inlet cam only I wasn't so keen.

You havnt wasted your money certainly. I'd run them on some Combo or another. I much prefer the delivery they get and better top end.

That’s good to hear mate, is it worth my while keeping the exhaust cam as well just incase? At least then we can see which is the better combo.

I’m sure Bills already tried and tested this on his Lupo with the AET hybrid thus only using the intake cam. But if he’s willing to be patient with me getting the best outcome with both or just the intake it’s all good


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[Stuart B]

it's good to experiment, and as the benchmark K04 Hybrid is the ATE380 and any deviations in setup make for an interesting datasheet. exciting times

 

[S3AMJ]

it's good to experiment, and as the benchmark K04 Hybrid is the ATE380 and any deviations in setup make for an interesting datasheet. exciting times

Thanks for your optimism mate, I’m very intrigued with the outcome. The one thing I’d really like to change is the downpipe. The one I have 3” Pipewerx. Which is fine of course..... but if I just had enough room to increase the plenum (bend from turbo) to 3.5” and then ceramic coat it, happy days. But that’s just a dream haha


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[S3AMJ]

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Managed to get a picture of the stamp mark on the intake cam, what I thought was a (T) which it cant be because there isn’t a 058109021.T

 

[hydro s3]

To me it looks like it says D E on the top and a T on the bottom.

 

[Stuart B]

come on buddy, do a brass rubbing instead of trying to look at reflections.

maybe it is King Henry 8th or an OAK tree?

 

[S3AMJ]

Right..... further research indicates that the facelift engines had the plastic inlet manifold setup, which leads me to believe that I have a late revision of the intake cam again is either F or K.

I’ve got the information from other threads regarding the angles, lift and n.OT. Measuring the lift is easy. But how I do go about measuring the angles?



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[superkarl]

You wont be able to.
But there is only 2 degrees between the F and K, so only 2 degrees less than the standard cam. So I don't think its anything to be concerned about, as the rest of the specs are identical.

 

[S3AMJ]

You wont be able to.
But there is only 2 degrees between the F and K, so only 2 degrees less than the standard cam. So I don't think its anything to be concerned about, as the rest of the specs are identical.

Thanks Karl, really appreciate that. Come mapping day I’m sure it can all be dialled in correctly. Suppose my biggest concern was the overlap, if there was to much of a difference then I could suffer with floating valves? Something I read last night but I’m sure that’s in extreme cases. I’m going to keep the exhaust cam as well, just incase it makes any difference for my setup/engine.

I suspect I’ll just be using the intake cam, but you never know. Like Nick mentioned above back when he was running the K04-064 he preferred using both NA cams rather than just the intake. But then he is driving a race machine not a wannabe race car like mine haha.


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[Stuart B]

Another unclear actual purpose of the additional shims, just that they are there because of the additional boost.

It must be minor preload - although this is a warning that the cam must be less than 9.4mm?

What are 'badger cams' are they a good combination of available parts after years of evaluation or totally custom parts?

 

[S3AMJ]

Another unclear actual purpose of the additional shims, just that they are there because of the additional boost.

It must be minor preload - although this is a warning that the cam must be less than 9.4mm?


View attachment 171260


What are 'badger cams' are they a good combination of available parts after years of evaluation or totally custom parts?

From what I make of it mate is when running there cams using OEM springs you need to have the 0.6mm shims so they stay within the maximum 9.4mm lift on OEM springs, anything more than that and the OEM springs could fail?

But if your going to slap some more aggressive cams into your head, your silly not to change all your valve gear.

 

[Stuart B]

The shims can only be removed or changed by removing the valves , but you can obviously change the cams - like you say if making the effort to change cams for performance why would you leave the rest stock. I wonder if supertech springs expect the shims to be used too?

 

[superkarl]

Another unclear actual purpose of the additional shims, just that they are there because of the additional boost.

It must be minor preload - although this is a warning that the cam must be less than 9.4mm?


View attachment 171260


What are 'badger cams' are they a good combination of available parts after years of evaluation or totally custom parts?

Not unclear and not because of boost. Exhaust pressure. That statement supports the theory that it’s extra preload needed

 

[badger5]

Thanks Karl, really appreciate that. Come mapping day I’m sure it can all be dialled in correctly. Suppose my biggest concern was the overlap, if there was to much of a difference then I could suffer with floating valves? Something I read last night but I’m sure that’s in extreme cases. I’m going to keep the exhaust cam as well, just incase it makes any difference for my setup/engine.

I suspect I’ll just be using the intake cam, but you never know. Like Nick mentioned above back when he was running the K04-064 he preferred using both NA cams rather than just the intake. But then he is driving a race machine not a wannabe race car like mine haha.


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overlap and valve float?
you're getting confused there dude

 

[badger5]

I wonder if supertech springs expect the shims to be used too?

they do not

 

[badger5]

Another unclear actual purpose of the additional shims, just that they are there because of the additional boost.

It must be minor preload - although this is a warning that the cam must be less than 9.4mm?


View attachment 171260


What are 'badger cams' are they a good combination of available parts after years of evaluation or totally custom parts?

shims are to increase seat pressure... and not because of extra boost but because of the back pressure .. which is why some cars built with old agu heads, suffered excessive egts, misfires etc.... which was valve train related but got blamed on exhaust manifold setup at the time. cat gold springs fitted in that example, egts normal, misfires gone. back pressure on k04/k04 hybrids (and k03) are big... eg, measured 65psi exhaust manifold pressure for 24psi inlet manifold pressure. too much back pressure is a very bad thing, and extreme cases, exhaust valves cannot close... yet whilst tuning can take exceptionally high timing whilst making no torque from it...… eg the engine has dynamically low compression when back pressures are such that the exhaust valves cannot close... egt's sky rocket however.. and things will melt shortly after.

cam wise.. cat make our spec cams, as initially designed by them for me back in 2005.... yes that long ago, based off the engine spec I gave them then. we fit them on all gt30+ sized builds to good effect.. we also tried them on ickle lupo k04-380, and on that vs its n/a inlet cam, made zero gains. zero.

 

[S3AMJ]

overlap and valve float?
you're getting confused there dude

Yeah your probably right Bill, I think I’ve read so much and I’m cross referencing stuff all wrong. I’ve got both cams, hopefully they are the right ones. I’ll let you do your wizardry


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[Stuart B]

shims are to increase seat pressure... and not because of extra boost but because of the back pressure .. which is why some cars built with old agu heads, suffered excessive egts, misfires etc.... which was valve train related but got blamed on exhaust manifold setup at the time. cat gold springs fitted in that example, egts normal, misfires gone. back pressure on k04/k04 hybrids (and k03) are big... eg, measured 65psi exhaust manifold pressure for 24psi inlet manifold pressure. too much back pressure is a very bad thing, and extreme cases, exhaust valves cannot close... yet whilst tuning can take exceptionally high timing whilst making no torque from it...… eg the engine has dynamically low compression when back pressures are such that the exhaust valves cannot close... egt's sky rocket however.. and things will melt shortly after.

cam wise.. cat make our spec cams, as initially designed by them for me back in 2005.... yes that long ago, based off the engine spec I gave them then. we fit them on all gt30+ sized builds to good effect.. we also tried them on ickle lupo k04-380, and on that vs its n/a inlet cam, made zero gains. zero.

Thanks for the excellent explanation of the shims and back pressure Bill.

How on earth did you go about re-designing cam profiles, that's incredible. Was this to try and resolve a problem from setup or part of the search for more power? The testing and log analysis across revisions must have been crazy.
Frickin Awesome