S3 APR stage 2

[Nick_C]

I'm getting a BCS powervalve turbo back with sports cat fitted next week and spoken with awesome gti about having a VW racing induction kit fitted along with APR stage 2 software, which they say is fine.

When I've looked on goapr.com and searched on Google there's hardly any mention of a stage 2 for the S3 8P. Only stage 1, 1+ and 2+. From stage 1+ it states you need a HPFP which I don't want to get just yet.

Can anyone confirm there is a stage 2 that can be used without having to get a HPFP as I believed they were only needed from stage 2?

 

[-Ju-]

Yes I went stage 2, done at Awesome Gti, for over 12 months before I went 2+.
Wish I'd of gone 2+ sooner though, big difference!

 

[Starry]

if you can stretch and get the 2+ you won't regret it..

 

[Nick_C]

Its very tempting but will probably end up with stage 2+ towards the end of the year as I'll have to save for the HPFP as I want the APR one and there a bit more pricey. I think from stock to stage 2 though I won't be disappointed.

 

[smurfworth]

Mine had a misfire on stage 2 because of the lack of HPFP. Be careful as you risk running it lean and burning the Pistons. Go straight to 2+ for safety would be my advice

 

[-Ju-]

Mine had a misfire on stage 2 because of the lack of HPFP. Be careful as you risk running it lean and burning the Pistons. Go straight to 2+ for safety would be my advice

I never experienced that with mine tbh.
What I have had and still do, is aftermarket intakes causing the system to run lean.
Make sure you keep a track of your ltft's( long term fuel trim) when your intake goes on as in my experience they tend to under read the airflow causing a lean mixture
So far I've tried

2 x Forge twintakes
2 x ITG (one sealed and one open)
Revo intake
Carbonio intake scoop

Out of all of them, the only one to run at factory levels is the carbonio as it retains the factory engine cover/air filter, all the others have the ltft at 15% +.
Oem is 5% and over 10% is not good.

Get yourself vcds if you haven't already and keep a track of how the cars running

 

[Nick_C]

That sounds like a bit of a pain. I'm planning on getting the VWR intake which Ive been told is the best performing. Although when I had a VXR most people said sticking to a performance filter in the standard airbox was the best up to stage 3 which may also be the way to go with the S3.

 

[-Ju-]

That sounds like a bit of a pain. I'm planning on getting the VWR intake which Ive been told is the best performing. Although when I had a VXR most people said sticking to a performance filter in the standard airbox was the best up to stage 3 which may also be the way to go with the S3.

I don't think there is much love on here for the standard air box tbh, I've found it fine though with the carbonio and panel filter even on 2+
I think the Revo one is the best rated, but then I suppose it depends which one you sell as to which you recommend!
The VWR is supposed to be ok on trims since they altered the main pipework, I'm not sure it's the best performing as I think you need an open intake for that, but I wouldn't mind trying it myself though.

 

[Nick_C]

Spoken to a couple of companies who both recommended the ITG or VWR as I initially wanted the APR carbonio but I was told it wouldn't get the most out of the map. Thought it was strange as I believed surely APR software should work best with their own parts.

I'm confused with what to do now. Maybe I should stick to stage 1 for the time being until I get a HPFP. As for intakes theres so much to chose from I'm not sure what to do for the best. I need the car reliable as it's used daily.

 

[-Ju-]

Yeah I was told the same, I've run logs though and it still flows as much as the ITG does.
The VWR is derived from the ITG but not the same. The ITG was available as an open filter or, like the VWR, with the sealed canister
They aren't the same though as the pipework on the ITG's was rather crude in comparison, all silicone pipes and metal jointers.
There are many threads on the internet about intakes and fuel trims.
I would say though that most people just run their choice of intake without ever checking what's going on and don't seem to have issues tbh
You could always go with a custom map, that way it's mapped to whatever is on the car and not just generic
Rick at Unicorn motor developments comes highly recommended

 

[Nick_C]

That's exactly who I'm thinking of going to if I don't get APR. That way he can map it safely to what is on the car. Maybe end up like a sort of stage 1+ map. I'm not particularly fussed on massive bhp I just want it set up right with the exhaust etc so I get the best out of it whilst running reliably. I've actually message Rick this morning but he's getting back to me later :-D

 

[-Ju-]

I considered Rick too but for some reason he never got back to me. I've had APR maps before so I went with them again.
It is a nice map the APR one, but kind of wish I'd gone with Rick now though as I couldn't get the APR EMCS on my ecu whereas Rick reckoned he could do the multi programs

 

[Smirky]

Personally would always choose a custom map over generic maps ,when my clutch arrives I will be taking it to either Rick at unicorn or Nicky at r-tech ,as there isn't really any highly recommended tuners around my area I went down the superchips route as they offer 3 stages and that gas allowed me to add bits as I've gone along ,currently on there stage 3 and my clutch has started slipping over 3/4 k revs ,I choose superchips as its meant to be a relatively "safe" map and can add/remove maps with the handset at home,found the maps to be fine and had no running issues what so ever

 

[S3Alex]

The APR fuel pump is essentially not a whole lot different to either the Loba or the Autotech internals.

I've run the Autotech up to around 500bhp,over several years with no problems at all,but they do need to be built carefully in a clean area.
The Loba probably offers the best value unless you have to have the other brand.

Intakes....the Revo is currently the best in most respects,and as has been said,the VWR is basically an ITG derived intake.
I currently use the old style ITG which despite it's looks,works well to over 600bhp,so it's one of the very few actually proven at those levels.
All the flow tests are usually done at much lower power levels than this,and may not show any restrictions at that level.

Maps....I had Revo for many yrs,from Stg1 to Stg4,with no real issues,and APR have invested a lot recently in revising their 8P maps.
Having said that,the custom mappers such as Rick get a very well deserved good feedback,and having gone completely off-piste with custom gear,I can wholeheartedly recommend that route.

ITG...the face only it's mother could love....

 

[S3Alex]

I don't think there is much love on here for the standard air box tbh, I've found it fine though with the carbonio and panel filter even on 2+
I think the Revo one is the best rated, but then I suppose it depends which one you sell as to which you recommend!
The VWR is supposed to be ok on trims since they altered the main pipework, I'm not sure it's the best performing as I think you need an open intake for that, but I wouldn't mind trying it myself though.

We tried Stg2+ on mine with the stock air box,as I was at the phase of trying to keep the car looking normal.
It didn't work very well and what we got was a persistent misfire under load,which turned out to be entirely down the stock air box strangling the car a bit.
The old,original Forge CAI cured it,and was soon followed by the lovely looking ITG,which thankfully I don't have to dismantle every time I do something to the car.

 

[-Ju-]

We tried Stg2+ on mine with the stock air box,as I was at the phase of trying to keep the car looking normal.
It didn't work very well and what we got was a persistent misfire under load,which turned out to be entirely down the stosk air box strangling the car a bit.
The old,original Forge CAI cured it,and was soon followed by the lovely looking ITG,which thankfully I don't have to dismantle every time I do something to the car.

In fairness I've only tried the stock airbox with the carbonio scoop and it works fine, that's the only reason I went 2+ as I knew I could use it as a backup

 

[-Ju-]

One things for sure though, when you start mapping you can soon open up a can of worms!

 

[S3Alex]

In fairness I've only tried the stock airbox with the carbonio scoop and it works fine, that's the only reason I went 2+ as I knew I could use it as a backup

I know that often what works on one car doesn't work as well on another,but there are so many variables in terms of how the car's hardware and software are set up that it's difficult to compare sometimes.
I think we tried too hard to keep it looking untouched,and to wring the maximum from that,but it didn't work.

Then the slippery slope of modding got really steep....

 

[Smirky]

I know that often what works on one car doesn't work as well on another,but there are so many variables in terms of how the car's hardware and software are set up that it's difficult to compare sometimes.
I think we tried too hard to keep it looking untouched,and to wring the maximum from that,but it didn't work.

Then the slippery slope of modding got really steep....

Think u got swept away in the Avalanche Alex lol

 

[Nick_C]

Well this has completely confused me. Haha. Think I'll just go to Rick at unicorn and get either VWR or Revo intake. Then save for a HPFP. Probably the autotech, then go stage 2+.

 

[S3Alex]

Well this has completely confused me. Haha. Think I'll just go to Rick at unicorn and get either VWR or Revo intake. Then save for a HPFP. Probably the autotech, then go stage 2+.

I think that's a very good decision.

It's easy at the start to get confused by the number of options available,and the best thing to do is to try and keep it as simple as possible.
Rick is an excellent choice,and he will try to give you the best solution possible from the start.

He also has the expertise to build an Autotech to last,and if you buy that pump,that's a crucial factor,as poor builds result in failures.
Mine has been running for over 60k miles now.

Overall,the best value for money would be Stg2+,i.e.uprated HPFP/exhaust/CAI,and would take you to around 360-380bhp reliably.
Don't get carried away with the pursuit of absolute figures,as that's not useful for how a car runs on the real road.

 

[Smirky]

I think that's a very good decision.

It's easy at the start to get confused by the number of options available,and the best thing to do is to try and keep it as simple as possible.
Rick is an excellent choice,and he will try to give you the best solution possible from the start.

He also has the expertise to build an Autotech to last,and if you buy that pump,that's a crucial factor,as poor builds result in failures.
Mine has been running for over 60k miles now.

Overall,the best value for money would be Stg2+,i.e.uprated HPFP/exhaust/CAI,and would take you to around 360-380bhp reliably.
Don't get carried away with the pursuit of absolute figures,as that's not useful for how a car runs on the real road.

Don't forget to factor in clutch unless he is running a dsg clutch ,? Not heard of a standard manual surving 2+?

 

[Nick_C]

Mines s-tronic so I don't need to worry about the clutch just yet. Hopefully Rick will get back to me later today or tomorrow and I can go from there. Got my heart set on the VWR intake though as I really like the look of it and Rick also said that was a good choice. See what he says about the map, wouldn't mind being stage 1 until I get the HPFP tbh.

 

[Smirky]

Worth sticking on 1 for a while appreciate 2+ more then, hpfp makes a huge diff across the rev range seems to make it effortlessy quick

 

[smurfworth]

HPFP cured my misfire when I was on stage 2 software so must have had something to do with that

 

[Nick_C]

I understand that it's best to have a HPFP if stage 2 and beyond really but if I'm after a custom map from unicorn motor developments then surely Rick will be able to work with the hardware I have and make sure the fuelling is mapped accordingly. I'm not after massive bhp. I'd be happy with between 310-330bhp really. To me that's a quick enough car for now as I don't really have the justification to spend a fortune on coilovers and big brake setup.

 

[S3Alex]

I understand that it's best to have a HPFP if stage 2 and beyond really but if I'm after a custom map from unicorn motor developments then surely Rick will be able to work with the hardware I have and make sure the fuelling is mapped accordingly. I'm not after massive bhp. I'd be happy with between 310-330bhp really. To me that's a quick enough car for now as I don't really have the justification to spend a fortune on coilovers and big brake setup.

Yes he will.
Speak to him and tell him what you want and he will be able to advise you on what you should expect.

Re your other comment about bhp....I said the same at first.

 

[Nick_C]

Yes he will.
Speak to him and tell him what you want and he will be able to advise you on what you should expect.

Re your other comment about bhp....I said the same at first.

I know what you mean but no point having a 360-380 bhp car that doesn't handle .Lol I'm going to be keeping the car so it's a long term thing. Will just have to see how it develops :-D

 

[S3Alex]

I know what you mean but no point having a 360-380 bhp car that doesn't handle .Lol I'm going to be keeping the car so it's a long term thing. Will just have to see how it develops :-D

I was partly joking but your thoughts above are spot on.

The car is a bit heavy,and wallows easily when pushed,so doing the suspension before any other mods is well worth while.
Uprating the ARB's makes a huge difference for relatively little outlay.

 

[Nick_C]

Thinking H&R ARB's and springs or maybe the VW racing springs as they don't lower the car much.

 

[LiamS3]

I am running the ITG Intake also, like Alex.

Seems to be coping fine with 500+bhp, I'd recommend the APR HPFP as it has been working spot on for me since day one, Intake-wise I'd recommend the ITG for sure or the VWR.

I don't think many custom tunes can compete with the Generic APR 2+ Map... Yes it's generic but the gains from it are second to none, after Stage 2+ though then I'd go custom for sure as that's when things really start getting "custom" hardware-wise.

Just my 2p worth!

 

[S3Alex]

Thinking H&R ARB's and springs or maybe the VW racing springs as they don't lower the car much.

I've been through a few here....I have Eibach ARBs,but frankly it doesn't matter,they will all stiffen the car up well.
I then went for kW v3 coilovers first,which are a good solution for everyday use,if a little complex to set up,and the Bilsteins score there for ease and good results.
I've got something more track oriented now which wouldn't be of much use to you.

 

[-Ju-]

I've been through a few here....I have Eibach ARBs,but frankly it doesn't matter,they will all stiffen the car up well.
I then went for kW v3 coilovers first,which are a good solution for everyday use,if a little complex to set up,and the Bilsteins score there for ease and good results.
I've got something more track oriented now which wouldn't be of much use to you.

I know you've mentioned a few times Alex that your clubsports are a little hardcore, but tbh I love mine and don't find them harsh at all.
I do normally leave them on the factory shipped settings though as I find that a nice compromise for the road.

 

[Nick_C]

I half wish I hadn't started this thread because I'm now thinking sod it and just get APR stage 2+ and HPFP all done at awesome gti haha it would save a lot of messing around!!

 

[S3Alex]

I know you've mentioned a few times Alex that your clubsports are a little hardcore, but tbh I love mine and don't find them harsh at all.
I do normally leave them on the factory shipped settings though as I find that a nice compromise for the road.

I do simply as I think most people probably would find them a bit much.
I like a car that's pretty solid shall we say,and I've raised the settings quite a bit from the factory levels,but as you know I like to keep fixing things even if they aren't broken....

 

[-Ju-]

I half wish I hadn't started this thread because I'm now thinking sod it and just get APR stage 2+ and HPFP all done at awesome gti haha it would save a lot of messing around!!

I was very happy on the stage 2 APR map with the carbonio. Along with the milltek resonated exhaust it was nice and quiet, almost oem like day to day. Only under load would the exhaust truly wake up. It was also quicker than my old stage 1 APR'd S3
If you go 2+ and you have to run a CAI, even with the sealed vwr, it can be a little tiresome to listen to at times. I have the carbonio back on atm and it's back to being nice and refined again. The fuel trims are also back to oem

 

[Nick_C]

I was very happy on the stage 2 APR map with the carbonio. Along with the milltek resonated exhaust it was nice and quiet, almost oem like day to day. Only under load would the exhaust truly wake up. It was also quicker than my old stage 1 APR'd S3
If you go 2+ and you have to run a CAI, even with the sealed vwr, it can be a little tiresome to listen to at times. I have the carbonio back on atm and it's back to being nice and refined again. The fuel trims are also back to oem

I think I'm going to have to speak to awesome gti and have a chat with them. I'm completely baffled by what to do now haha

 

[-Ju-]

Haha that's forums for you!
We can all spend your money for you lol

 

[Nick_C]

Right I've all but decided. I'm going to order a LOBA hpfp and VW racing induction kit on Monday from TSR performance. Exhaust is getting fitted next week then APR stage 2+ when I can get booked in.

 

[LiamS3]

Enjoy mate! Stage 2+ is how the car should have came haha

These forums will eat your money lol!