VAG Admit Cheating Diesel Emmissions...

cuke2u

Registered User
http://www.theguardian.com/business...a-investigate-volkswagen-clean-air-violations http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a26745/epa-vw-violation/ I thihk what is coming out is that it is clear all manufacturers are cheating the emmissions tests on diesels and the nitrogen oxide outputs and have been for some time, as they do with mpg, the current A3 being one of the many cars included in this. However this the first time I have heard of software being installed that actively impliments this. I wonder, now that they've been caught with their pants down, how many vehicles worldwide are going to face a greater scrutiny?

Mods, if you think this post should be in a different place then please feel free to move it.
 

cuke2u

Registered User
This is how they did it: It's described the software as a "sophisticated algorithm" that could detect when a car was undergoing official emissions testing, but would then "greatly reduce" the effectiveness of pollution-control devices during other normal driving situations.
They could be facing a fine of up to $18 billion which is a shame because if they spent that on F1 then they would more than likely be challeging Mercedes...
 

cemerson

Registered User
Bring on the electric cars.
 

Scottyg

Registered User
As had been said, they all do it and test under false conditions. I've said it before, it makes for excellent mpg which we know we'll never achieve. However, it also keeps down C02 levels which benefit road tax (at the moment). So it's a lose on one win on the other. If VAG have admitted this the rest will follow one by one!

And please no electric cars!
 

kc1174

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I've read all the various articles on this, and have no clue what's impacted here. Apparently it's just 4 cylinder TDIs, which includes the 2015 A3, but they then go on to talk about it not being cars with adblue/urea which my 2015 A3 has, and they didn't sell the A3 here in 2014.. I guess until VAG admit this or it's resolved in court, I won't know until then if mine is impacted. One of these days, the EPA will concentrate more on other, far worse issues like fracking. VW clearly don't lobby/bribe the US government as well as the natural gas industry do.
 

kc1174

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Does this affecxt uk cars and for example A3's?
It doesn't look like it. It's the EPA here in the US. It could eventually but as they don't list all Audi models, it could just be the 2.0l TDI and could just be VW did this in the US since the US hates diesel. Too many "ifs" and "coulds" right now to know who is impacted or what might have been done.
 

Daveotto

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Disappointed that VW have done this and will damage their reputation globally.

Non USA manufacturer heavily promoting diesels is an obvious target for close scrutiny from the USA regulators so VW should not be surprised they gave been caught.
 

mfl

Registered User
Disappointed that VW have done this and will damage their reputation globally.

Non USA manufacturer heavily promoting diesels is an obvious target for close scrutiny from the USA regulators so VW should not be surprised they gave been caught.

unfortunately sometimes the profit motive wins over principles (actually 99% of the time), but then look at GM's recent case of 124 deaths over faulty ignitions switches, is it cheaper to compensate deaths against the cost of the recall.
 

Av4nt

Registered User
Coudlnt care less ill still stay with audi
 

Wondering Soul

Registered User
They're all as bad as each other really. The rest will now watch closely to ensure they aren't caught out!
 

Av4nt

Registered User
Indeed they probably will. My engine isn't economic at all anyway lol so I shant worry
 

tjacoby

Registered User
lots of questions: couldn't Audi have offered an emissions low/high software switch in the S3? Do US diesel's now pay a premium for pre September ECU's? Do US diesel's avoid dealership service to avoid ECU firmware updates?
 
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Ignition1

Guest
I'm sure VW thought they were justified doing this.

To create software like that, in a huge company like VW, you need a lot of developers, testers, 3rd party teams, people to peer review, project managers, people to sign it off etc etc.

That could mean a lot of opportunities for someone to "leak" - IF they thought it was a scam. I'm fairly sure someone a VW either saw a loophole in the law, misinterpreted the law or considered it standard practice and thought "well if they're doing this, I'm doing it. And if I go down, they go down with me".
 
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Ignition1

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Thinking about it a bit more - all car manufacturers attempt to trick consumers. Simply look at MPG figures that are quoted - unrealistic and rarely achievable in real-world conditions, yet every single manufacturer out there will throw those figures around to shift metal. They're within the law but it's not a moral sales practice.

I'm sure someone at VAG knew that installing a "defeat device" was illegal. Though if it meant being able to sell more cars then it was justified in their minds.

Fairly sure VAG UK are doing quite a bit of internal investigation right now.
 

JohnM100

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....but the MPG test is a *standard* test to better allow comparison between manufacturers and models. The fact it isn't realistic has been discussed before (done in a lab, unrealistically slow acceleration times, 10% margin etc), and I thought they were looking to revise it.

IIRC where Audi got in trouble a few years ago with the ASA was claiming them as real, but that's a different issue.

This one doesn't look good on the face of it but until more facts emerge I am not going to take a dive on that one. One article on BBC website said VW would discuss with US. Regulators if this broke EU rules; that could be anything as simple as a typo in the article but if true then surely that's a case for the EU to determine and not the U.S.
 

cilurnum

Registered User
I'll be very surprised if the same thing wasn't done in emissions tests in Europe and very surprised if other manufacturers are not doing the same thing. It's the only possible explanation for the emissions figures they are all putting out.

It's being used as a stick to beat diesel with, but I suspect we'll eventually find out that direct injection petrol engines are chucking out more nitrous oxide and more dangerous fine particles than anyone has been willing to admit - which they do in the name of better fuel economy. Remember, a few years ago it was all about carbon dioxide and now it seems that it isn't. It's all one big cheat really. You really can't believe anything.

Americans don't like diesels and their vehicle industry really, really doesn't so this shouldn't come as a surprise, but there's obviously some people getting rather desperate over it, especially in the face of its plummeting price versus petrol. We need a vehicle with a decent fuel cell in it and we can leave all this behind.
 

h5djr

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This problem is just a drop in the ocean as far as any problem with diesel as a fuel. Lorries and buses in particular tend to be much older and have engine that pollute much more than cars ever do. Perhaps London in particular should consider banning ALL diesel vehicles including ALL lorries and buses. Diesel engines in cars has improved dramatically since 2004 and they still produce far less CO2 which is still claimed to cause 'climate change' than any diesel engine. Yes VW were wrong in what they have done but lets keep the position as a whole in perspective. And out of interest all the normal 4-cylinder engines, both petrol and diesel, used in Europe, in all VW, Skoka, SEAT and Audi cars, are produced in an Audi factory.

Will this stop me buying another Audi - No Way.
 

ACWKGYTO

Registered User
Nice one @cuke2u

VAG are crooks, the car industry is unfortunately riddled with them.

They have tried to fool the consumer with clean diesel and in turn polluted the planet for profit

They may not be the only ones. I will be wanting compensation if my car values are affected by this.

I learnt about this on Monday after doing a car show over the weekend,with VW mk2 owners club

I'm very unhappy about it after investing a large sum in VAG but now I'm thinking this could be just what we need ! Pollution levels from NOX in Manchester are terrible...VAG have squeezed years of extra profit from engine technology they knew was past it ! They have only just started to introduce hybrids and electric vehicles, when others have been doing it for years.

I hope this kills off the dirty deisel for good !

Didnt see the thread was already running from Saturday, heres my thread anyway.

Some of you may not like it as it is fairly political and doesnt skirt around the issue.

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/vag-dieselgate-a3-tdi.253418/#post-2563352
 
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Flibble

Registered User
The defeat device as found wouldn't affect MPG figures, nor CO2. Nor would it affect petrol engines. It works by injecting extra adblue when it detects that it is being tested for emissions, reducing NOx. Fixing it might mean customers have to refill the adblue much more frequently than currently which will be a faff and extra expense, but shouldn't otherwise affect performance.
 

Scottyg

Registered User
Having read a little further it is only 2.0lt TDIs that are in the equation. Any smaller or larger TDI units are fine.
Also read that EU/UK cars should be fine due to the way they are tested and regulated.
 

ACWKGYTO

Registered User
The defeat device as found wouldn't affect MPG figures, nor CO2. Nor would it affect petrol engines. It works by injecting extra adblue when it detects that it is being tested for emissions, reducing NOx. Fixing it might mean customers have to refill the adblue much more frequently than currently which will be a faff and extra expense, but shouldn't otherwise affect performance.

Pretty sure the cars in question dont use adblue

http://pdf.reuters.com/pdfnews/pdfn..._ade57f33f35547478154efbbe38e16c3_PRIMARY.jpg
 

h5djr

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ACWKGYTO

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Certainly my 2.0TDI - 184 does not use any form of AdBlue.

They didnt want to use adblue in the A3 because of lack of room for it, and obviously extra expense to consumer and fleet.

11 million affected vehicles with Type EA 189 engines

The engine in question is the Type EA 189 common rail diesel, Volkswagens, Audis, Skodas and Seats

I wonder if it does anything anyway !!!! Trust has gone completely out of the window now VAG

@h5djr I would get ready to make a compensation claim

Volkswagen has said it will post a video statement by chief executive Martin Winterkorn on its website at 15.00 GMT (16.00 BST).

http://www.theguardian.com/business...orms-greek-cabinet-vw-emissions-business-live
 
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Flibble

Registered User
Certainly my 2.0TDI - 184 does not use any form of AdBlue.
Not sure EU spec cars are affected anyway, the device seemed directly targeted at California test protocols.

Having read more I'm now completely in the dark about what it actually does, some articles mention adblue, some say it's not adblue, who knows. Maybe they just crank the EGR up when it's in test cycle. That infographic above as with everything else sheds no light on the actual mechanism of the device, it just says "emissions go down!"
 

ACWKGYTO

Registered User
Not sure EU spec cars are affected anyway, the device seemed directly targeted at California test protocols.

Having read more I'm now completely in the dark about what it actually does, some articles mention adblue, some say it's not adblue, who knows. Maybe they just crank the EGR up when it's in test cycle. That infographic above as with everything else sheds no light on the actual mechanism of the device, it just says "emissions go down!"

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--mSFULNML--/1440829358662786344.jpg
 

cuke2u

Registered User
The EU are in contact with the VAG and the US authorities but it is yet premature to say if any UK vehicles are unaffected. The statement was tha european cars are pulled directly from the production, unlike being specifically sent for testing. But then if all production cars with that engine have the defeat device fitted it wouldn't matter which one is tested...
 
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ACWKGYTO

Registered User
Exactly a cheat on all 11 million Ea 189 R4 CR TDi

36 % off share price of VAG since the markets reopened after the weekend.

I now wonder if my S3 8V meets Euro 6 emission standards

Lying VAG ***** !

1.6 TDI CR GreenLine 77 kW 2010–2015 CAYC (EA189) 1598 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 77 kW (105 PS; 103 hp)
1.6 TDI CR 77 kW 2013–2015 CAYC (EA189) 1598 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 77 kW (105 PS; 103 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2009–2015 CFHA (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2009–2015 CFHF (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2015- (EA288) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2015- (EA288) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 103 kW 2011– CFHC (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 103 kW (140 PS; 138 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 103 kW 2009– CFHC (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 103 kW (140 PS; 138 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 103 kW 2010– CFHC (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 103 kW (140 PS; 138 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 110 kW 2015– (EA288) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 110 kW (150 PS; 148 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 110 kW 2015– (EA288) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 110 kW (150 PS; 148 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 125 kW 2010–2015 CFJA (EA189)) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 125 kW (170 PS; 168 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 125 kW 2013–2015 CFJA (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 125 kW (170 PS; 168 hp)

not sure about the latest MQB GTD and Audi A3 version ???
 
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cuke2u

Registered User
I think the 189 engine was superseded by the 288 and I thought that in this country the 8v has the 288. You can tell because the 189 has a second blue capped filler next to the fuel tank one.
But VAG has also admitted that the engine management software at the centre of the scandal is also installed in other Volkswagen Group diesel engines. However VW believed it doesn’t have an effect in the majority of cars in which it features.
 
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Abrown

Registered User
What if U.K. Models where affected also and then recalled?
Would we get good compensation or have the option to have a buy back?
Also would this impact the co2 tax bracket?
 

Flibble

Registered User
Useful info, so it's both adblue (which is the additive used for SCR catalysts) and LNT systems that are being fiddled. No info on exactly what the fiddling is, but for SCR I'd assume they just squirt extra adblue in, which makes it a relatively easy retrofit, with the downside that consumers are going to be unhappy. LNT would presumably require more frequent NOx reduction cycles, which consume fuel. Again, not massively popular with consumers as it means increased fuel consumption.
 

ACWKGYTO

Registered User
Apparently tax collection is down in this quarter so HMRC might backdate to 2009 !!!!

VW are really in the

Scheiße !
 

cuke2u

Registered User
What if U.K. Models where affected also and then recalled?
Would we get good compensation or have the option to have a buy back?
Also would this impact the co2 tax bracket?
I don't understand where compensation or buy back comes into it. Perhaps you could explain, and it also, so far, I thought this has nothing to do with co2 emission but nox...
 

Flibble

Registered User
What if U.K. Models where affected also and then recalled?
Would we get good compensation or have the option to have a buy back?
Also would this impact the co2 tax bracket?
I would imagine you'd get compo only, not a buy back, given the ages of the cars affected. Even if a buyback were offered it would be "market rates" for the age and condition of the car, which wouldn't be great.

It might affect the CO2 bracket, if the car was found to be emitting more CO2 on retest, more likely it would reduce performance or increase running costs through extra fuelling and/or adblue though.
 

ACWKGYTO

Registered User
I don't understand where compensation or buy back comes into it. Perhaps you could explain, and it also, so far, has nothing to do with co2...

I totally understand...I nearly bought a CR TDi last week but decided against, if I had I would be absolutely going mad right now !

VW car values especially those diesel cars affected will never be the same after this,

Selling a diesel that is supposedly clean and is not clean at all and at a premium over petrol is a con and deserves compensation.

How do you know c02 and nox are not affected ? HMRC im sure will be investigating and changing things,

you know how much they like to tax us all.
 

Flibble

Registered User
How do you know c02 and nox are not affected ? HMRC im sure will be investigating and changing things,
NOx is affected that's the whole point, but since NOx is only tested during type approval, that's unlikely to affect people who already have cars (other than by trashing the air they breathe).

CO2 shouldn't be much affected, but the NOx reduction devices do increase CO2 output somewhat when in operation, so there is the potential for CO2 emissions to change. Whether that would cause existing cars to have a new tax band or not I don't know.
 
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