Remapped? Buy rods!!!

16Klappe said:
Ideal, if you would be so kind as to drop me a PM when it comes to taking it off and let me know a price if I have the funds and it's all ready to bolt on I'll probably be interested.

Then it'll be a trip to R-Tech for some mapping, although I do want to get badgered this time :(

I've been Stormed and R-Tech'd, but never Badgered :(
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Yeah man, of course. More than welcome to drive it in mine before I remove it all, give you an idea of its condition etc.
 
<tuffty/> said:
Not sure... can ask Bill :)

May as well have a GT30 fitted at the same time ;P

<tuffty/>
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Ha, well yes Paul but I was actually meaning more in the way of preventive engine maintenance/upgrading rather than raw power addition!
 
BENJAMIN said:
Yeah man, of course. More than welcome to drive it in mine before I remove it all, give you an idea of its condition etc.
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Would be useful actually, I assume yours is an S3 though? Drop me a message nearer the time and if I am in the financial position to buy I'll be very interested. :)
 
Don runs a gt28 350bhp standard rods

I know I wouldn't go any further with mine without doing them!
And I'm defo gonna be changing the internals of my 2.0 tfsi
 
AARON77 said:
Don runs a gt28 350bhp standard rods

I know I wouldn't go any further with mine without doing them!
And I'm defo gonna be changing the internals of my 2.0 tfsi
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I heard that with a 1.8t a real man would fit an FSI 92.8mm crank, have an 82.5mm overbore and 144mm IE rods and then bolt GT30's on. :icon_thumright:

1984CC of high boosting, torque building 2.0t.

*dribbles*
 
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I remember of hearing the figure of around £1000 including rods but don't hold me to that and can't remember where that was at ;-)
 
I've been told that rods aren't just a plug and play jobbie,its been advises to replace the bottom end while getting the rods done.shells, zaust valves etc
 
<tuffty/> said:
I can see this going the same way that 'other' infamous rod thread went...

At 159k its impossible to tell... its completely subjective.... if the engine has not had a hard life then you could be fine, if its been ragged within an inch of its life you could still be fine...

Facts are they can and do fail.... I have seen them fail in std tune as well as stage 1/2 tunes...

Would I recommend you changing your rods? difficult one... if you are planning to keep the car a while you will get the value of what you pay to get them done and you can have the edge should you wish to sell the car on given that rod failure is getting more common...

Choice is yours realistically but for anything beyond generic mapping them changing the rods is a no brainer IMO

<tuffty/>
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Cheers for the info dude. I was reluctant to go stage 2 because of rod failure. I'll take your advise and change them as I'm planning in keeping the car for some time! I'll end up modding endlessly but taking care of this car as you said is a better investment!
 
Paradox1 said:
I've been told that rods aren't just a plug and play jobbie,its been advises to replace the bottom end while getting the rods done.shells, zaust valves etc
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Humm... all thats typically needed to fit rods on an S3 (providing the rest of the engine is sound of course) is rods, big end shells, head gasket, head bolts, turbo/manifold gasket, turbo bolts (as old ones will be stretched and chewed from removal), oil, filter and G12...

Don't need exhaust valves (or guides I am assuming) or main bearings etc unless you really want to... arguably the way to do it properly if you plan to keep the car and want the best out of it is to do a minor overhaul but you can get away with just rods if the rest of the engine is sound...

Most of the cars I have changed rods in have been pretty fault free barring a few of the normal high mileage/age related things like rocker gaskets and other oil leaks that are easily fixable...

Mine had the worst ring wear I have seen on any engine I have worked on but that was due to other issues...

Always an element of risk that you will find 'other' things to do to the engine once taken apart especially on high milers but rod changes are pretty straight forward on their own

<tuffty/>
 
16Klappe said:
I appreciate that Paul, but for arguments sake do you agree with my thinking that this is probably more the mapping at fault than the theoretical setup? I don't know torque figures, haven't seen a dyno plot and am just going by what I think obviously. But if I was putting a K04 on a 1.8t with stock rods I'd want full boost from 4500RPM up to be on the safe side?

And yeah Ben, I totally agree for the 300 quid that the rods costs and the ease of fitting them if you are going past a K03s hybrid you would be a fool not too. But it's just such pot luck, for every thread you get about bent rods you'll get somebody like Aaron pop up with a quote like his, or me comparing it to two very differently mapped K03s powered cars.

*Edit -

I ask all of this, not to be an argumental little know it all but because hybrid is my next step and your guys opinions are more valuable than my thoughts.
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You dont have all the facts, nor does anyone else contributing to this either... Speculation ensues...
Pointless

Fatigue.... Cylinder pressures... is what causes rods to bend. end of

Standalones, nicer as they are to map, do not in the main have knock sensing, so if for Example, a dodgy tank of fuel was picked up, which caused det, then no compensation to ****** ign timing or boost would be done... and any weakness/fatigue in the engine, will show up.

vis-a-vis rods can and will continue to break and bend.

THESE ENGINES ARE >10 YEARS OLD GUY - REMEMBER THIS.....


Rods is sound advise for anyone wanting to push their cars.
 
The Doctor said:
Ha, loving this thread. Anyway I'm currently only on a Stage 1 map @ approaching 90k miles, but am considering upgrading the rods at 100k because I intend on keeping the car for a good few years yet and may choose to modify it further at a later date. Roughly what would I be looking at (£££) to have the rods replaced by an independent specialist and would you suggest having any additional work done at the same time?
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budget on ~£1300 all inc for rifle drilled rods fitted...
 
Only just spotted this thread.

My car is 500 miles from 130k and is currently running revo stage 2 pushing out the power and torque shown in my sig.

I am planning on changing my rods at Easter when I have enough time to do the work myself.

The thought of a rod bending petrifies me and I probably don't drive my car as hard as I'd like because of a little voice in the back of my head shouting "RODS!" :)

My plan was to get the rods changed before stage 2 but it hasn't worked out like that. Now I'm looking forward to getting them done and turnin up the boost to run a bit more torque :eyebrows:
 
1300, you have to be fairly keen to have that done, I'd rather chance it on stage 1 or 2. 2nd hand blocks and heads aren't too difficult to source should the worst happen.
 
sportstractor said:
1300, you have to be fairly keen to have that done, I'd rather chance it on stage 1 or 2. 2nd hand blocks and heads aren't too difficult to source should the worst happen.
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I've worked out all the parts will come in at about £800. That includes rifle drilled rods, bearings, oil pump water pump, and all the gaskets,belts , and bolts. I'm doing the work myself so will save a packet on labour.

I don't want to risk a rod going and then having to get a 2nd hand block, strip it all down and do an engine swap.
 
Westy said:
I've worked out all the parts will come in at about £800. That includes rifle drilled rods, bearings, oil pump water pump, and all the gaskets,belts , and bolts. I'm doing the work myself so will save a packet on labour.

I don't want to risk a rod going and then having to get a 2nd hand block, strip it all down and do an engine swap.
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Yea, but to be fair your chasing more power than most so probably worth it considering the money your spending on mods and mapping.
 
badger5 said:
budget on ~£1300 all inc for rifle drilled rods fitted...
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Thanks for the guide price. It's a tough one though. I've decided I'll keep the car for the long term, and over time I intend to continue to apply some improvements to it, but I have no immediate plans for significant power increases. It just feels the right thing to do to ensure that I have a strong base to work from in the future.
 
The Doctor said:
Thanks for the guide price. It's a tough one though. I've decided I'll keep the car for the long term, and over time I intend to continue to apply some improvements to it, but I have no immediate plans for significant power increases. It just feels the right thing to do to ensure that I have a strong base to work from in the future.
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Yes you do.... the B5 Tip I sold you! ;)

And yes I'm still waiting to fit my v2 once I've sorted my brakes out. (sticking caliper which Bill diagnosed months ago without even seeing the car)

Shameless plug I'll have some DS2500 pads up for grabs soon with about 1500miles on them, plenty of meat left ideal for track use. Will post in classifieds when they're off my car with pics.
 
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The problem here is fatigue.

A standard rod, fitted to a standard engine, is sized such that fatigue effectively isnt an issue. However rods are one engine component thats VERY easy to size such that its ONLY JUST big enough. As a result, ANY tuning of the engine will likely push the rods past their safe zone, and into an area where fatigue will start ocurring.

Now it may well be that on stage1, that fatigue is minimal and it would take years of hard driving for the rods to fail. Therefore failures on stage1 are relatively unheard of. But its quite obvious that the further you push the rods past their original design specification the quicker that fatigue stresses will build.

Rods wont simply fail when they get to 300.01lbft, so saying "my cars been running xxx power for 4 years" doesnt actually mean anything. You may well drive the car sensibly most of the time, you may well drive it in such a way that the rods never see the huge torque spike, you may well have just got a good set of rods. But just as similarly, you might have a weak set. And then, after exposing them to stage2 levels of fatigue with constant riding of the torque curve and then a slight boost or timing issue causing a bigger spike than normal could see them fail inside 6 months.

The point to consider, is that as a result of this fatigue, its not a question of "will my rods fail" its a question of "WHEN will my rods fail".

It may take 5 years, and only result in a slight kink as in the above photo. Alternatively, they could blow a hole in the block after 6 months and leave you with a nice mess.
 
Why do so many people crap themselves about rods these days?? Back in the day you'd get a map and off you go. Now there's too many numpty mappers who don't know what they're doing! Go to a reputable mapper if you want to be safe! For example, Badger Bill - He definitely knows what he's doing!
 
DJ_Troopa said:
Why do so many people crap themselves about rods these days?? Back in the day you'd get a map and off you go. Now there's too many numpty mappers who don't know what they're doing! Go to a reputable mapper if you want to be safe! For example, Badger Bill - He definitely knows what he's doing!
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But even Bill will say you need rods, fair enough you COULD say it is in his interest that we all think we need rods in our cars, but Bill doesn't strike me as that sort of person.

I agree with you, but as more and more people who know what they're talking about make solid arguments you would be a fool to chase stage 2 power without them.
 
DJ_Troopa said:
Why do so many people crap themselves about rods these days?? Back in the day you'd get a map and off you go. Now there's too many numpty mappers who don't know what they're doing! Go to a reputable mapper if you want to be safe! For example, Badger Bill - He definitely knows what he's doing!
Click to expand...

Missing the point a bit bud... Aragorn's post pretty much sums it up... Bill will always recommend rods if the level of tune has got to the point that it is looking like they will be needed...

<tuffty/>
 
DJ_Troopa said:
Why do so many people crap themselves about rods these days?? Back in the day you'd get a map and off you go. Now there's too many numpty mappers who don't know what they're doing! Go to a reputable mapper if you want to be safe! For example, Badger Bill - He definitely knows what he's doing!
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Their are for sure a whole bunch of folks who will slap on a cheap map which will run lean but stock boost in.... and these conditions will also bring with them high timing pull, det, egts thru the roof etc etc..
BUT ALSO, as I said earlier these cars are no longer new, and what was true when "new cars" with "lower milage" on them, is Not the case now.. The BS some folks (inc tuners) still quote is quite scarey.... 300lbft is "fine" according to many still!!! yea right!
Luck Houston is a factor..
Roll the dice

Feeling lucky? {in a Clint Eastwood stylee}


bent%20conrod_small.jpg
 
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I think there are two ways of looking at this rods stuff. Most of us on here get worried about rods bending, we're on a forum. People arent going to post stuff like, 'i went out in my car today and the rods didnt bend' . You mainly post problems your having on a forum. I know plenty of people that are running big power with standard rods. Aaron and Don off here to name a few, both of them drive their cars like their stolen and both are over 300bhp.

However, it does seem like its getting more common.. wouldnt you just change them for peace of mind? I did.
 
When i had my car stage three tuned ( hybrid K04 ) and mapping by CC
I had quiet a few miles on it but it was fine, All they said was dont nail it from very low revs ,
Basicaly avoid loading up the engine too much.
 
S3 Paul said:
When i had my car stage three tuned ( hybrid K04 ) and mapping by CC
I had quiet a few miles on it but it was fine, All they said was dont nail it from very low revs ,
Basicaly avoid loading up the engine too much.
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Sounds like <sarcasm>brilliant</sarcasm> advice!!!!

That statement is unbelievable!! how can anyone think of getting away with saying that!!!...

Hi, have loads of power (by the way that will be eleventy billion quid) now... you can't actually use it or drive it hard as it will bend the rods but as long as you drive like miss daisy it will be fine!!

Sorry bud (and this isn't a dig at you at all so really don't think it is) but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard...

How can you tell? what happens on the one time you 'forget' to not load up the car as you have to pull away a bit quick to nip into traffic or the missus borrows the car and doesn't know what 'do not load it up' means or something!!! thats insane for a tuner to say...

<tuffty/>
 
Agreed Paul, be sensible with the load on the engine, and you cut down the risk, in other words dont floor it in 6th at 40mph,
If it was a cheap mod im sure they would all be done, but 1k+ is out of reach or seems an unsatisfying outlay to some, as the only gain is piece of mind, try telling the mrs for example....:)
I have mine done, as i know what power i want to end up at, but budgeting for rods for a stage 2 is a bitter pill to swallow i would have thought.
You can always make the tuner aware of your worries, and have the torque turned down, but wheres the fun in that....catch 22

Agreed Tuffty, tuners should not be telling you that, thats called covering there asses...:)
 
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s3dave said:
You can always make the tuner aware of your worries, and have the torque turned down, but wheres the fun in that....catch 22
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there can be no guarantees

no one can assure the internals of the engine regardless who they are.. forged rods or risk the worst.
roll ya dice
 
I think that's a little harsh.
I agree it sounds bad, but there was t that many hybrids then.
. I don't wish to defend or slate a given tuner,
But I was happy and to be fair it never threw it's teddy out of the pram.
I chose to build a new motor with rods and the like on their advice as I said I wanted factory spec reliability.
 
S3 Paul said:
I think that's a little harsh.
I agree it sounds bad, but there was t that many hybrids then.
. I don't wish to defend or slate a given tuner,
But I was happy and to be fair it never threw it's teddy out of the pram.
I chose to build a new motor with rods and the like on their advice as I said I wanted factory spec reliability.
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I wouldn't say it was harsh... if it was advice from a knowledgeable mate then fine... he is looking after your interests but from someone that taken money from you to give you more power then telling you you can't actually use it?? not so sure..

<tuffty/>
 
Like I said .
I'm not going to slate or blow smoke up a given tuners ****.
It was advice on how. It to throw a rod .it worked, the car got driven hard but I waited till further up the rev range than 1200 rpm to nail it.
 
The worst example of what Tuffty is talking about would be the guys at MTM. I don't want to slate anyone on a public forum but for the amount of money they charge for their BT kits and then they send you away with standard rods and standard coolers is a complete joke.

Stacey had an MTM 350bhp kit and the rods bent. Stock rods, ok, as said above some engines are fine on them with 300+bhp, but standard side mount intercoolers.... come on!!

I do think that some tuners are still living in the caveman era and haven't bothered moving on with mods now knowing the limitations of these engines.
 
I think to be fair , yes there was plenty of big turbo kits around but people were still developing the hybrid set up.
 
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