S3 Remapped today - low torque gains

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drjim1

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Hi all,

Had my 2010 DSG S3 remapped today also had a milltek cat back fitted and while the car achieved a 40bhp increase (304bhp) it only made an addtional 20lb.ft. (286lb.ft)

The car does feel quicker when revved hard but I was expecting a bit more shove.....

I know RR vary but this is other 50% down on the torque increase I was expecting

any ideas?

Jim
 
Just a guess but I know that the dsg limits the torque at a certain limit to save the gearbox.
This might be happening?
 
Can't be the DSG box.. I'm running 385ft-lbs on this graph without the DSG Map from APR.. Is it a Revo, APR or Custom Map? 10380491 485811314853579 1309950303669947436 o
 
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You may also see a bit more when the ECU has adapted.

A full turbo back exhaust will help as will a CAI.
 
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I wondered if it was the DSG limiting the torque.... But I guess that rules that out!

Is 286 a really low figure? Should I be concerned?
 
Will fitting a CAI tho after the remap make much difference? Or would he have to get another remap to get the full increase of the CAI?
 
You'd expect a bit more but give it time to adapt and if you aren't using a CAI and turbo back exhaust that will lose some torque and bhp.
 
Compkiler said:
Will fitting a CAI tho after the remap make much difference? Or would he have to get another remap to get the full increase of the CAI?
Click to expand...

You wouldn't need it mapped again.
 
How long does it take to adapt? Just a little worried as it's over 50% down on what's advertised....
 
Ok.

Panel filters are frankly next to useless in terms of gains.

The most restrictive part of the exhaust is the turbo downpipe which looks like a squashed piece of tin can.

Add those together and you lose a good bit of torque.
 
I'm in a similar boat with Shark stage 1 with near identical figures, I'm running a CAI so I wouldn't expect much of an increase with one tbh mate.



Dyno_zpsb61edcf8.jpeg~original




Interestingly even APR who seem to are finding some excellent numbers in their Stage 2+ maps only quote peak numbers of 306 horsepower and 293 ft-lbs of torque with their stage 1 software so I wouldn't worry mate your numbers seem perfectly normal.

There's a member here who has a power graph showing 350 ft/lb with Shark stage 1 run on Sharks rollers, I'm very dubious of it though, you cant just pull 60 ft/lb extra out of nowhere, kinda unexplained that one tbh.
 
Understood about the standard down pipe being restrictive but this was just a straight forward stage 1 remap on a otherwise standard car and would have thought it should do at least 310ft.lb
 
drjim1 said:
Understood about the standard down pipe being restrictive but this was just a straight forward stage 1 remap on a otherwise standard car and would have thought it should do at least 310ft.lb
Click to expand...

The average figure is around 310 lbs.

Yours isn't far off and the other parts I mentioned plus adaptation may account for the gap.

If you're not satisfied then go back to the tuner.
 
Muzza80 said:
I'm in a similar boat with Shark stage 1 with near identical figures, I'm running a CAI so I wouldn't expect much of an increase with one tbh mate.



Dyno_zpsb61edcf8.jpeg~original




Interestingly even APR who seem to are finding some excellent numbers in their Stage 2+ maps only quote peak numbers of 306 horsepower and 293 ft-lbs of torque with their stage 1 software so I wouldn't worry mate your numbers seem perfectly normal.

There's a member here who has a power graph showing 350 ft/lb with Shark stage 1 run on Sharks rollers, I'm very dubious of it though, you cant just pull 60 ft/lb extra out of nowhere, kinda unexplained that one tbh.
Click to expand...

Hmmm interesting.... As you say nearly exactly the same. Did you have the shark DSG torque limiter patch with this map?
 
S3Alex said:
The average figure is around 310 lbs.

Yours isn't far off and the other parts I mentioned plus adaptation may account for the gap.

If you're not satisfied then go back to the tuner.
Click to expand...


Thanks for for you're advice Alex, I will talk to the tuner on Monday just wanted to see what other people where getting
 
Also just the environment it was rolling roaded in will effect it.

Take it to a different rolling road on a different day and your figures would be different again.
 
drjim1 said:
Thanks for for you're advice Alex, I will talk to the tuner on Monday just wanted to see what other people where getting
Click to expand...

All cars are slightly different.

At the start mine just about made the manufacturers figures and only just made the averages for Stg1.

As leegsi says different days on different RRs will give varying results too.
 
S3Alex said:
All cars are slightly different.

At the start mine just about made the manufacturers figures and only just made the averages for Stg1.

As leegsi says different days on different RRs will give varying results too.
Click to expand...

Mine was spot on std power prior to the remap hence the disappointment in only making an additional 20ft.lb
 
drjim1 said:
Mine was spot on std power prior to the remap hence the disappointment in only making an additional 20ft.lb
Click to expand...

You can imagine my disappointment being told mine struggled to make even standard power pre mapping.

Thankfully it never looked back after that.
 
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My car is a DSG. My car was Shark mapped and the DSG was most definitely limiting the torque increase on my car. I had to go visit them to get it sorted. At that time they had not yet been doing the tweak to trick the DSG to get the full torque out of the map, however I wanted the DSG map and had that done instead. I spend a phenomenal amount of time on Notts ring roads, so 6th gear at 30 mph was needing sorting, LOL.
 
RPB said:
My car is a DSG. My car was Shark mapped and the DSG was most definitely limiting the torque increase on my car. I had to go visit them to get it sorted. At that time they had not yet been doing the tweak to trick the DSG to get the full torque out of the map, however I wanted the DSG map and had that done instead. I spend a phenomenal amount of time on Notts ring roads, so 6th gear at 30 mph was needing sorting, LOL.
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What was your BHP/Torque before and after the DSG remap ?
 
Errrr, now you're asking! LOL. Just try a search on here I am sure at some point I put a post up about it.............
 
The torque increase(shove)on my stage 1 remap is the most noticeable improvement rather than the peak BHP at the top end of the revs. Mine is a manual gearbox so can't comment about DSG or their limiting abilities but something is not right to just gain 20lb/ft surely?
 
The tuner got back to me today and advised that with DSG the power run is only done at 80% throttle due to the kick-down and this is why the torque figure is low...
 
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The way to get round this is when car is in manual mode change gear with the paddle and keep hold of the paddle with foot down to full throttle even kick down and it won't kick down at all, another thing is once a DSG has been mapped it's better to get the gearbox calibrated via VCDS. This way it can learn and adapt the new torque instantly.
 
drjim1 said:
The tuner got back to me today and advised that with DSG the power run is only done at 80% throttle due to the kick-down and this is why the torque figure is low...
Click to expand...

The mapping in an S3 allows 100% throttle without the kickdown pressed, it classes kickdown as 110% throttle. The load / boost calculation is the same at full throttle without kickdown as it is with kickdown pressed.

Also on the 2009on S3 the structure of the mapping has a calculated torque figure that the engine is producing, and it sends that to the DSG box. This needs to be adjusted in the engine software so that the gearbox does not limit the torque the engine is producing. Just a thought but this might be why the torque is a little bit low.

Like the others have said, I would expect around 310ftlbs on a totally stock car but there's no way to know whether or not yours is doing what it is supposed to be without proper data logs whilst under full load on the dyno. In my opinion 20ft is not enough gain for a stock S3, I wouldn't be happy if I mapped a customer's car and that's all it did.
 
This does look like DSG torque shedding. The power figure is good. APR, Revo etc use a hack in the software to bypass the std DSG limit of 350Nm. Note this is an internal ECU representation and doesn't represent actually torque output exactly. The engine ECU sends a torque message to the DSG ECU, when the DSG ECU sees a certain torque, it sends a message to the engine ECU asking for torque to be reduced. I patch DSG cars in the same way, but prefer to remap the gearbox which allows it's torque limit to be increased.

You can see when this kind of patch has been applied as the measuring block which shows engine torque will be artificially low.

Having said that, if the RR operator is not used to running DSG cars and only ran at 80% throttle in the midrange, then this would also show a low power figure.

Rick
 
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Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. said:
This does look like DSG torque shedding. The power figure is good. APR, Revo etc use a hack in the software to bypass the std DSG limit of 350Nm. Note this is an internal ECU representation and doesn't represent actually torque output exactly. The engine ECU sends a torque message to the DSG ECU, when the DSG ECU sees a certain torque, it sends a message to the engine ECU asking for torque to be reduced. I patch DSG cars in the same way, but prefer to remap the gearbox which allows it's torque limit to be increased.

You can see when this kind of patch has been applied as the measuring block which shows engine torque will be artificially low.

Having said that, if the RR operator is not used to running DSG cars and only ran at 80% throttle in the midrange, then this would also show a low power figure.

Rick
Click to expand...

Looks like I need to ask this question.

Regards
Jim
 
just to twist it up a little my cars stock and dyno'ed 296 ftlbs stock…. and 280bhp!
 
Spoke to tuner again today and have confirmed the torque limits are adjusted with the map... They have also confirmed stock DSG cars never run 100% on the RR compared to a manual.
 
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