Milltek tbe vs bcs tbe

Smirky

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hi just wondering if anyone knows if there is any independent back 2 back data available on the milltek non res tbe and the bcs sports tbe (non powervalve) knocking around any where online ? cant seem to lay my hands in any
Cheers Matt
 
What kind of data?

Its known that the milltek back box will not flow for more than 370hp whereas ive not heard anything regarding flow limits for the BCS
 
I've seen an s3 with a milltek fitted hit 500bhp
 
What kind of data?

Its known that the milltek back box will not flow for more than 370hp whereas ive not heard anything regarding flow limits for the BCS
Data as in bhp/torque produced and where in the rev range etc
I.e same car back 2 back dyno runs
 
The data you need is Turbo Out gas pressure at maximum power to compare the two... Same car, same dyno, same day, same sensors....
 
The data you need is Turbo Out gas pressure at maximum power to compare the two... Same car, same dyno, same day, same sensors....
Do you know of this has been done?
 
Didnt wanna say it but Red hit the nail on the head. From an engineering standpoint, there is nothing to beat the BCS on the market at the minute IMO. The powervalve system really is something special.
 
Low down torque with BCS is noticeable due to the powervalve system. Milltek is good but quality nowhere near BCS systems.
I wouldn't be getting the powervalve just the sports one
 
Happy to offer our Audi-Sport Forum member discount on the 76mm turbo back system or the 90mm RS downpipe option if required. Crucially the Siamese centre silencers will allow the equivilent flow ratio to 76mm inlet feed whilst eliminating drone associated with other systems that have to remove the centre silencer in order to run a 76mm straight pipe. Any brand offering a system that claims to be offering a 76mm silenced centre would need careful analysis - as in order to do that the oval silencer necessary would hang prohibitively low under the prop and be dangerously close to the ground. Most silenced options are 70mm and even that is too close for comfort.
Cheers
Nige

 
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Will the 90mm run on an s3 ? Much advantage to running the 90? Quite a journey to your place for me how much is the fitting? Or is that free to forum members :)
Can you pm me the prices for the sports system (non powervalve) with 76mm downpipe and with 90mm thank you
 
hi there
The 90mm pipe will show benefits above 450bhp.
Prices Pm'd including shipping and fitting.
Cheers
Nige
 
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Have you collected any pressure data on your systems vs standard Nige?
 
Bit of a trek for me too, is the power valve something you could fit on your driveway?
 
Have read many papers on various applications and spoken with top tuners and had products dynoed to show remarkable gains, but never tapped in to measure absolute back pressure at the turbo outlet.
Exhaust mass/density, volume, and temerature are all crucial in creating the ideal circumstances for optimized power / response - all of which are affected by key factors such as induction, fueling and boost.
This is an extract from a company that was faced with the dilemma of 3.00" or 2.50" choice of system...

Exhaust velocity is dependent on the temperature of the exhaust gas. As we know, the engine combustion and turbo restriction processes heat the spent exhaust gas. Gas expands when heated.

The expanding gas creates pressure within the confines of the exhaust tubing.

This pressure "seeks" out lower pressure, which is at the tailpipe. Basically, the pressure wants to escape, and this helps keep the gas moving away from the engine.

A properly designed performance exhaust "manages" this pressure properly. As the exhaust gas moves away from the turbo, it begins to cool down. As it cools down, its pressure inside the exhaust tubing reduces.

Too big of an exhaust tubing diameter for the given heat, and the gas will cool down prematurely, reducing velocity towards the tailpipe, which is not good for power.

Now, throw in the factor that when at lower rpms and idle, the entire exhaust system is cooler than at high rpm and full throttle. A 3.0" system has more standing air volume inside it than a 2.5" system, which means more air inside it that will absorb the heat coming from the exhaust gas. A drop in heat means a drop in pressure, which means a drop in velocity.

That is precisely why "special" programming is needed for a 3.0" exhaust.

What happens is that there is tremendous turbo/power lag with the 3.0" system because of this excessive air volume. That causes actual turbo boost to not match requested turbo boost from the software. And to make matters worse, when the turbo finally does spool up in an attempt to match requested boost, the factory N75 valve can't keep up and overboost happens. And then the N75 does catch up, but the ECU is already reacting to the overboost spike as read by the boost sensor, and the opposite happens (underboost). This dance/surge happens for a few hundred rpms as the ECU finally manages to get everything under control.

It is this surging down low that a special software flash is intended to fix.

However, this surging is simply a result of TOO LARGE EXHAUST TUBING. The software cannot change the physics of the mechanical parts it is working with and get the turbo to spool up faster down low. It can only help reduce the negative effects of over and under spool due to the 3.0" system. Therefore, significant power (torque) is left on the table simply because the exhaust is too large for the power and displacement it is working with.


Our full time 3.0" turbo back sport systems are designed to run in conjunction with a package of modifications including mapping, however, our unique Powervalve systems which operate utilising a 76mm boost actuated exhaust gas flow control fluctuate between an overall flow rate between 60 and 76mm which is optimised at ***psi of boost this is why the mid range torque balloon is far greater than any other system on the market as essentially it is 2 systems for the price of 1.

Cheers
Nige
 
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Definitely would not recommend trying to fit the system on your drive...
The prop has to be disconnected to free the OEM DP and the engine levered forward.
We can ship to a preferred installer however.
cheers
Nige
 
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Bit of a trek for me too, is the power valve something you could fit on your driveway?
Don't even attempt it mate ,I'm gonna go up there as hopefully nige will fit it with care no chance let the cowboys at quickfit etc touch it
 
Have read many papers on various applications and spoken with top tuners and had products dynoed to show remarkable gains, but never tapped in to measure absolute back pressure at the turbo outlet.
Exhaust mass/density, volume, and temerature are all crucial in creating the ideal circumstances for optimized power / response - all of which are affected by key factors such as induction, fueling and boost.
This is an extract from a company that was faced with the dilemma of 3.00" or 2.50" choice of system...

Exhaust velocity is dependent on the temperature of the exhaust gas. As we know, the engine combustion and turbo restriction processes heat the spent exhaust gas. Gas expands when heated.

The expanding gas creates pressure within the confines of the exhaust tubing.

This pressure "seeks" out lower pressure, which is at the tailpipe. Basically, the pressure wants to escape, and this helps keep the gas moving away from the engine.

A properly designed performance exhaust "manages" this pressure properly. As the exhaust gas moves away from the turbo, it begins to cool down. As it cools down, its pressure inside the exhaust tubing reduces.

Too big of an exhaust tubing diameter for the given heat, and the gas will cool down prematurely, reducing velocity towards the tailpipe, which is not good for power.

Now, throw in the factor that when at lower rpms and idle, the entire exhaust system is cooler than at high rpm and full throttle. A 3.0" system has more standing air volume inside it than a 2.5" system, which means more air inside it that will absorb the heat coming from the exhaust gas. A drop in heat means a drop in pressure, which means a drop in velocity.

That is precisely why "special" programming is needed for a 3.0" exhaust.

What happens is that there is tremendous turbo/power lag with the 3.0" system because of this excessive air volume. That causes actual turbo boost to not match requested turbo boost from the software. And to make matters worse, when the turbo finally does spool up in an attempt to match requested boost, the factory N75 valve can't keep up and overboost happens. And then the N75 does catch up, but the ECU is already reacting to the overboost spike as read by the boost sensor, and the opposite happens (underboost). This dance/surge happens for a few hundred rpms as the ECU finally manages to get everything under control.

It is this surging down low that a special software flash is intended to fix.

However, this surging is simply a result of TOO LARGE EXHAUST TUBING. The software cannot change the physics of the mechanical parts it is working with and get the turbo to spool up faster down low. It can only help reduce the negative effects of over and under spool due to the 3.0" system. Therefore, significant power (torque) is left on the table simply because the exhaust is too large for the power and displacement it is working with.


Our full time 3.0" turbo back sport systems are designed to run in conjunction with a package of modifications including mapping, however, our unique Powervalve systems which operate utilising a 76mm boost actuated exhaust gas flow control fluctuate between an overall flow rate between 60 and 76mm which is optimised at ***psi of boost this is why the mid range torque balloon is far greater than any other system on the market as essentially it is 2 systems for the price of 1.

Cheers
Nige


Thanks you Nige.....between yourself and the papers quoted,it explains a lot.

Are you saying that by using a valved system such as yours,with a 90mm exhaust system, that you could get the benefits of a 75mm system at lower power levels,and retain the gains from the 90mm system at higher power and flow rates.

The ECU on mine can run exhaust valve control.....is the valve on your system controlled electrically?
 
Hi Alex
For the car to benefit from the 90mm downpipe the car would need to be running big power and boost as in most cases the 76mm DP is more than adequate. Try and imagine how often you push your car on full boost and and also over a sustained period and you'll find it's low in percentage terms. However, the Powervalve principal will always benefit you as exhaust mass/ volume / temperature and velocity are in flux.



Ideally we would insert the 60mm dia pipe at the front of the system alongside the valve and run it the length of the car, but this would render it overely expensive and dramatically increase the weight of the system.
From an economy perspective we recently clocked an ED30 (KO4) which saw fuel consumption drop from a measured 300 miles per tank to 396 miles per tank.
From a purely thermodynamic point of view Adiabatic energy conservation is a sometimes overlooked concept, based on how much more efficient the turbo becomes once you start to reduce heat loss through the turbo housing. Energy conservation using this principal results in direct crank power gains at lower boost levels. Again think fuel economy here... All the major car manufacturers are looking at this for the next gen turbo charged cars. At the moment turbo blankets are the optimum way to achieve this or even ceramic coating - but conversely no long term test data is available to measure turbo life expectancy at high boost levels so dont quote me.
Cheers
Nige
 
Last edited:
Hi Alex
For the car to benefit from the 90mm downpipe the car would need to be running big power and boost as in most cases the 76mm DP is more than adequate. Try and imagine how often you push your car on full boost and and also over a sustained period and you'll find it's low in percentage terms. However, the Powervalve principal will always benefit you as exhaust mass/ volume / temperature and velocity are in flux. Ideally we would insert the 60mm dia pipe at the front of the system alongside the valve and run it the length of the car, but this would render it overely expensive and dramatically increase the weight of the system.
From an economy perspective we recently clocked an ED30 (KO4) which saw fuel consumption drop from a measured 300 miles per tank to 396 miles per tank.
From a purely thermodynamic point of view Adiabatic energy conservation is a sometimes overlooked concept, based on how much more efficient the turbo becomes once you start to reduce heat loss through the turbo housing. Energy conservation using this principal results in direct crank power gains at lower boost levels. Again think fuel economy here... All the major car manufacturers are looking at this for the next gen turbo charged cars. At the moment turbo blankets are the optimum way to achieve this or even ceramic coating - but conversely no long term test data is available to measure turbo life expectancy at high boost levels so dont quote me.
Cheers
Nige

Thx Nige....mine has a 75mm downpipe,lagged top to bottom and a turbo heat jacket,all to keep heat within the system.



The rest of the system is broadly speaking a 70mm Milltek from downpipe back.

The turbo is a GTX3582,with 0.82 A/r,and the car runs around 550bhp @ 1.9 bar.

Now I know that it won't run anything like that for much of the time other than occasional ful throttle bursts,so what I'm looking at is the best way to maximise top end power,without compromising the rest of the range.

Is there a benefit in a valved 90mm system from the downpipe back?
 
Bit of a trek for me too, is the power valve something you could fit on your driveway?

It's do able, I fitted my BCS downpipe and sports cat on the drive. The hardest part was removing the prop shaft donut bolts where it connects to the transfer box as I had to learn over the engine. Didn't need to move my engine either. It's certainly do able but i would ensure you have a full day if you haven't done it before. I tried to remove mine without removing the prop shaft and that wasted a good lot of time.
 
Nice set up you've got there Alex :respekt:
The 90mm DP will give you lowest pressure behind the turbo under full load - couple that to the PV system and your bottom and mid range torque will be controlled to optimum levels. We have yet to develop a 90mm complete system.
Remember the PV is boost sensitive so it only begins to actuate when boost is detected, openning fully at a key pressure setting. In terms of control, we like to think of your right foot being the button - press hard and everything changes fluidly. But the greatest thing I find is the psychological effect in terms of not becoming de sensitized to the sound over prolonged exposure, the way you would be with our 'full time' exhaust products...
Our full time exhausts whilst great in their basic format, having been developed to high levels, over time I believe the sound becomes just part of the back ground information that your car feeds back to you. With PV this is not the case, the exhaust delivers sound when you want it to, in the same way you extract power - on a needs basis.
Personally I feel that the reward mechanism in our brains are far more satisfied when we recieve controlled bursts of stimulus than prolonged exposure to the same input.:racer:

Cheers
Nige
 
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Definitely would not recommend trying to fit the system on your drive...
The prop has to be disconnected to free the OEM DP and the engine levered forward.
We can ship to a preferred installer however.
cheers
Nige

Ok maybe not a driveway then lol. I haven't got the car yet but do you have any installers South East way, I'm in Kent?

Don't even attempt it mate ,I'm gonna go up there as hopefully nige will fit it with care no chance let the cowboys at quickfit etc touch it

Well I know one decent garage that fit exhausts and tyres to all sorts of cars and the guys are pretty good, but it was more along the lines of setting up the actual valve system part?

It's do able, I fitted my BCS downpipe and sports cat on the drive. The hardest part was removing the prop shaft donut bolts where it connects to the transfer box as I had to learn over the engine. Didn't need to move my engine either. It's certainly do able but i would ensure you have a full day if you haven't done it before. I tried to remove mine without removing the prop shaft and that wasted a good lot of time.

Lol well I'm no mechanic but I do have mechanic friends who have access to a lift and loads of tools so sounds like I won't even bother. Plus I have a block paved drive so if anything damages that my missus will have my balls as earrings.
 
Nice set up you've got there Alex :respekt:
The 90mm DP will give you lowest pressure behind the turbo under full load - couple that to the PV system and your bottom and mid range torque will be controlled to optimum levels. We have yet to develop a 90mm complete system.
Remember the PV is boost sensitive so it only begins to actuate when boost is detected, openning fully at a key pressure setting. In terms of control, we like to think of your right foot being the button - press hard and everything changes fluidly. But the greatest thing I find is the psychological effect in terms of not becoming de sensitized to the sound over prolonged exposure, the way you would be with our 'full time' exhaust products...
Our full time exhausts whilst great in their basic format, having been developed to high levels, over time I believe the sound becomes just part of the back ground information that your car feeds back to you. With PV this is not the case, the exhaust delivers sound when you want it to, in the same way you extract power - on a needs basis.
Personally I feel that the reward mechanism in our brains are far more satisfied when we recieve controlled bursts of stimulus than prolonged exposure to the same input.:racer:

Cheers
Nige

Thx Nige,

The downpipe is part of an externally wastegated Nortech system which they could adapt to 75mm downpipe plus wastegate dump tube to maximise flow there.

If I'm correct the valve on your system then is operated via a boost tap,and not electrically operated?
If so,then my ECU couldn't directly control it.

I do agree re stimulus and reward....you simply get used to something constant.....the car seemed very fast when I got it back from the latest round of mods,and now I've got used to it....
 
Thx Nige,

The downpipe is part of an externally wastegated Nortech system which they could adapt to 75mm downpipe plus wastegate dump tube to maximise flow there.

If I'm correct the valve on your system then is operated via a boost tap,and not electrically operated?
If so,then my ECU couldn't directly control it.

I do agree re stimulus and reward....you simply get used to something constant.....the car seemed very fast when I got it back from the latest round of mods,and now I've got used to it....


yes it's boost actuated Alex - the boost is havested on the KO4/03 turbo cars via a Forge auxilliary take off valve which plugs directly into the inlet.
cheers
Nige
 
yes it's boost actuated Alex - the boost is havested on the KO4/03 turbo cars via a Forge auxilliary take off valve which plugs directly into the inlet.
cheers
Nige

Thx Nige.

We could work that on mine,but I think I'd need to sit down with Nortech,Syvecs and Storm and work this out!

Thx again.
 
Thx Nige.

We could work that on mine,but I think I'd need to sit down with Nortech,Syvecs and Storm and work this out!

Thx again.
I'm glad you didn't say your car feels slow now lol ! Nige I run forge pcv delete plate with 3 outlets assume you can take the powervalve off of one of those ?
 
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Yes Matt - thats correct
I'm glad you didn't say your car feels slow now lol ! Nige I run forge pcv delete plate with 3 outlets assume you can take the powervalve off of one of those ?
 
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