How will the US emissions scandal affect UK A3 owners?

droidski

droidski

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In recent days I've been reading about how VAG have tweaked the engine management software in certain diesel VW/Audi models (2009-2015 A3s as well as Jettas, Beetles, Golfs and Passats) so that the engine runs in reduced emissions mode while being tested but pumps out much higher levels of pollutants (as much as 40x) in normal running http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34311819 for the full story.
Quite apart from this being an unbelievably cynical attempt to thwart pollution legislation by a respected motor manufacturer I'm wondering how this relates to UK emission levels, whether or not Audi are likely to recall affected A3s to rectify this 'feature' and how this will affect future MOT tests/resale values?
I know the full story hasn't come out yet but any thoughts?
 
From the Autocar website; "A spokesman for the Volkswagen Group said that he is “not aware of any recalls in Europe or the UK,” and pointed out that the emissions testing is different in Europe to the USA.

He also said that the ‘defeat device’ was not something that the UK arm of VW was aware of. However, Reuters reports that the German government is calling on all car makers to pass on the neccessary data to determine if emissions data in Europe may also have been falsified."
 
I slightly admire them for doing this, emissions laws aren't my favourite :)
 
Quoted mpg levels almost impossible to achieve shocker ;) don't they all do it?!

TX.
 
read it in the ft earlier today, think stocks fell approx 20%
 
Shouldn't affect us in the UK as the cars are tested to a different standard.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders stresses: "The EU operates a fundamentally different system to the US - with all European tests performed in strict conditions as required by EU law and witnessed by a government-appointed independent approval agency."

However, if they do suffer a large fine and class action law suits in the US it might make their cars more expensive as they then seek to recoup some of the this by charging us in Europe far more than they do in the US.
 
audi upgrades
Coal
 
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pluves1 said:
Shouldn't affect us in the UK as the cars are tested to a different standard.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders stresses: "The EU operates a fundamentally different system to the US - with all European tests performed in strict conditions as required by EU law and witnessed by a government-appointed independent approval agency."
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you must be very trusting of government officials AND the "fundamentally different system" i.e. CARB(California Air Resource Board) which is also an appointed agency was paramount in the discovery. This is one of the oddest discoveries in automotive history. According to my VW source in Herndon Virgina, group of engineers wants to show the european community how good diesel cars are performing in the US. They find discrepancies. The send out an open letter seeking help in real world testing which is unusual to the US emissions community. West Virginia University sees the letter and bites. They test the cars( they happened to buy two VW's by chance) on the road and find that the usual emissions should go down during the test but they don't. Perplexed, they ask CARB to do a baseline test and find the emissions are great but then the retest test shows the same pattern. A rotten apple is suspected. I say "chance" because VW (laughingly now) voluntarily asked for a TDI recall last december for a software patch. EPA again gets involved and VW engineers can't baffle the EPA with bull*hit nor dazzle them with brilliance. EPA says no entrance for 2016 TDI and VW comes clean like "clean diesel". Really effing brilliant engineers to come up with that programming.
Mission Impossible was a great TV series and the creator was a friend of my Mums. He always said even the perfect crime has a 1000 ways to screw up. Who would have ever thought the above scenario would take place when the engineers tinkered with the little 4 pot. I guess they got sick of placing urine in the diesel line. So to sum it up...AUDI: Untruth in Engineering! bwahahahahah
 
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Ok so VW have been caught faking the tests. I cannot believe for one second that other manufacturers do not have something similar operating too. Diesels are by default "dirty", but the manufacturers are trying to prove they are not.

The testing is different in Europe, but by no means 'better'. All in controlled conditions at a ridiculous engine speed etc (does anyone actually think the McLaren P1 only emits 194g/km??).
 
I am looking forward to recall and new car!
 
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leshkin said:
Time to buy VW stock, maybe :)
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sliced said:
probably best to avoid the automotive industry for a while, likely that other car stocks may go down too
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leshkin said:
That was more in jest :) I'd never peg investment to single stock in reality :)
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I think Leshkin has a point here, and a very good one. Stocks fell 20% first day, almost 18% second day. Thats nearly 33% give or take so far overall compared to the start of the week.

Taking a look at the figures, and the boom and bust of the car industry, it would be worth investing in. One day, maybe in the next 4 years, the stocks will increase to those seen shortly before the recession.
 
I think that it will recover faster than that, once the initial public relations disaster fades into memory and the financial burden of recalls and fines is weathered, it will go back. I would bet that it will recover to previous levels within a year, if not sooner as speculative traders start buying the stock up.

Still, pegging your savings on a single company stock would be a silly move.
 
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Dom Leydon said:
I think Leshkin has a point here, and a very good one. Stocks fell 20% first day, almost 18% second day. Thats nearly 33% give or take so far overall compared to the start of the week.

Taking a look at the figures, and the boom and bust of the car industry, it would be worth investing in. One day, maybe in the next 4 years, the stocks will increase to those seen shortly before the recession.
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in 4 years time? The next recession is going to hit us in the next 3 years.
 
leshkin said:
I think that it will recover faster than that, once the initial public relations disaster fades into memory and the financial burden of recalls and fines is weathered, it will go back. I would bet that it will recover to previous levels within a year, if not sooner as speculative traders start buying the stock up.

Still, pegging your savings on a single company stock would be a silly move.
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personally its too volatile for my liking. As the saying goes "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent".

Agreed on single stock, better off diversifying to approx 20 or so.
 
The biggest can of worms is the implication for owners.

If they recall and get rid of the defeat-device software, what does that mean for future emissions test? What if as a result cars start failing those tests?

If they remove the code and reduce power to reduce emissions, then a lot of people bought a car that was supposed to be one thing and end up with another, not to mention the possible resultant reduction in temperature that might cause DPF's to block up more quickly and become less reliable as a result (they're not that reliable as it is!), or increased regen cycles burning more fuel and oil adding to the service schedule (?)

It will be really interesting to see how this shakes out, I don't see why owners should have to carry any cost whatsoever for a deliberate action on VW's part, if that means mandatory buy-back at list price for VW, then so be it.

The only recall I can think would work, without changing the nature of the vehicle would be a wholesale redesign of both the emissions control and DPF system, so you're basically into either a brand new engine or a brand new car...
 
Anyone who thinks that this will blow over (with regard to share price) is not thinking clearly how car manufacturers operate! Many suppliers have contracts with car manufacturers. Bosch are one & have admitted today that they supplied some of the technology that is alleged to be in question. Now I think there are going to be further instances of finger pointing with regard to who had to ensure legislation is complied with?

What's more are there any further manufacturers to be implicated???
 
pluves1 said:
Shouldn't affect us in the UK as the cars are tested to a different standard.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders stresses: "The EU operates a fundamentally different system to the US - with all European tests performed in strict conditions as required by EU law and witnessed by a government-appointed independent approval agency."

However, if they do suffer a large fine and class action law suits in the US it might make their cars more expensive as they then seek to recoup some of the this by charging us in Europe far more than they do in the US.
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It will effect every car eventually as they will roll out the tougher emission testing in Europe, I don't like diesels and never have and always wonered why governments have always wanted push dirty oil burners to us, maybe they had a surplus of the stuff, who knows.
Its always going to be more polluting than petrol as its not as refined to be more combustible than petrol and now the big car giants have been caught with there pants down, what a surprise, but don't worry as our government that pushed the diesel on us with cheap diesel prices that gradually went up will bring the price down again at the pumps (and low and behold diesel is cheaper than petrol again at the pumps) to help the big car giants that are owned by the oil companies and governed by our governments, and when they change the law on how we test our diesel cars in this country and Europe, they will be sure to only include the new cars out of the stable and we will all still buying 2nd hand environment polluting cars that cheat the the test stations and ruin the environment, which is load of tosh by the way. Its all a load of money making b*******
 
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You can take this as far up the money chain as you like. Businesses the size of VAG are too important to the world economy and have too much clout with a lot of friends in high places. If they want this to blow over then they'll know the correct pockets to line and it will be yesterday's news.
As you say, sold cars are never recalled to make them as up to date as new cars. The ones in the firing line will be fixed and owners compensated and everything will go on as it was in jig time.
Not what a lot of people want to hear but it will happen.
The up rated tests will be along soon enough and we'll all be paying higher road tax for the privilege!
 
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pluves1 said:
Shouldn't affect us in the UK as the cars are tested to a different standard.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders stresses: "The EU operates a fundamentally different system to the US - with all European tests performed in strict conditions as required by EU law and witnessed by a government-appointed independent approval agency."

However, if they do suffer a large fine and class action law suits in the US it might make their cars more expensive as they then seek to recoup some of the this by charging us in Europe far more than they do in the US.
Click to expand...

Okay I was wrong!!

'VW cheated Europe emissions tests

The German transport ministry has just this moment announced Volkswagen has admitted to cheating European emissions tests, Reuters reports'
 
I'm pretty sure for most owners their main priority is mpg, not a discrepancy in emission figures, and for that [mpg] these engines are very good. The consumer wants 100mpg, the governments want low emissions, so it seems the two don't always go hand in hand, because in the US there's plenty of alternative thirstier diesel options.

But this major problem right now for VW is nothing to do with the economy figures, it's to do with Nox emissions which are much higher than claimed. They are probably more efficient than anything else on the US market, but a diesel-guzzling 15mpg. Maybe the by-product of all this recycling of air means higher nox emissions, I've no idea.

In Europe, and especially the UK, it's all about Co2 and visible smoke which is much easier to check.
 
pluves1 said:
Okay I was wrong!!

'VW cheated Europe emissions tests

The German transport ministry has just this moment announced Volkswagen has admitted to cheating European emissions tests, Reuters reports'
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I see a big buy out coming somewhere in the future for VW.
Biggest con of the 20th century.
Less refined bigger burn rate bigger emissions, its simple maths.
Wonder how many years this has been going on, such a simple idea, if the wheels are not rolling, stick the engine into a lower state of tune, even if you rev it, you wont know, it so stupidly simple, only way round it is a rolling road MOT, never going to happen, but may be a good place to put your shares from VW???
 
I've gone from not wanting a new car to starting to much more actively watching of the prices and market over the next few months.
Profiteering from the misery of others. David Cameron would be so proud.
Its easy to be over simplistic on cases like these. But the emissions scandal is raising a smile or two to this petrol driving A3 owner.
'Diesel owners in we thought we were oh so clean and that's why we chose the diesel' shocker.

Go get a petrol, get it remapped. Increased torque, bhp and mpg. Sorted!
 
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mister.c. said:
I've gone from not wanting a new car to starting to much more actively watching of the prices and market over the next few months.
Profiteering from the misery of others. David Cameron would be so proud.
Its easy to be over simplistic on cases like these. But the emissions scandal is raising a smile or two to this petrol driving A3 owner.
'Diesel owners in we thought we were oh so clean and that's why we chose the diesel' shocker.

Go get a petrol, get it remapped. Increased torque, bhp and mpg. Sorted!
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Quieter smoother and much more refined to drive.
 
My biggest concern is the potential reduction in value...

I'm likely about to sell my A3 Black Edition 2.0TDI, which I assume has the engine in question.... I'll be pretty ****** off if the uncertainty about future road tax and/or recalls which may change the power, reliability or MPG of the car (eg by making the DPF more likely to clog), mean that the price drops. That could very well happen, since people are less likely to buy a car if they're unsure about future costs etc, or even just with the perception of a problem.

It may blow over in a few months, but what about those of us looking to sell sooner?
 
audigex said:
My biggest concern is the potential reduction in value...

I'm likely about to sell my A3 Black Edition 2.0TDI, which I assume has the engine in question.... I'll be pretty ****** off if the uncertainty about future road tax and/or recalls which may change the power, reliability or MPG of the car (eg by making the DPF more likely to clog), mean that the price drops. That could very well happen, since people are less likely to buy a car if they're unsure about future costs etc, or even just with the perception of a problem.

It may blow over in a few months, but what about those of us looking to sell sooner?
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I think that 4.7bn put aside isn't going to be enough.
 
audigex said:
My biggest concern is the potential reduction in value...

I'm likely about to sell my A3 Black Edition 2.0TDI, which I assume has the engine in question.... I'll be pretty ****** off if the uncertainty about future road tax and/or recalls which may change the power, reliability or MPG of the car (eg by making the DPF more likely to clog), mean that the price drops. That could very well happen, since people are less likely to buy a car if they're unsure about future costs etc, or even just with the perception of a problem.

It may blow over in a few months, but what about those of us looking to sell sooner?
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Doesn't affect UK cars AFAIK
 
Im guessing most on this forum with diesels wont care. They are modified with no dpf, changed maps, increased fueling etc etc :innocent:
 
Bazzle said:
Im guessing most on this forum with diesels wont care. They are modified with no dpf, changed maps, increased fueling etc etc :innocent:
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Yeah right, If had a dpf delete, I would be bricking it as to put back and get some sort of recommence from Audi will be impossible as they will use the delete as a get out clause, you will have to pay your £1000-£1500 to put back and then take down to Audi for them to alter the ecu and then your car will have some sort of extra emission control that will slow your car down with less performance and mess with you remap that cost you £400-£500 that you will have to have put back to standard map to get the work done to pass the new euro mot emission test that they will introduce. Not good for the modded diesels I'm afraid.
 
well most i would have to do is borrow a dpf and stick standard map back on car for a while . then once a recall is done whip dpf back off and stick map back on it had .

most diesels have had a dpf delete . and a map and egr delete . so were all screwed somewere down the line lol.

my car will always pass the test at the mot station , my brother owns it lol. and its so easy to trick the diesel smoke test with just a biro pen .
 
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hollow said:
well most i would have to do is borrow a dpf and stick standard map back on car for a while . then once a recall is done whip dpf back off and stick map back on it had .

most diesels have had a dpf delete . and a map and egr delete . so were all screwed somewere down the line lol.

my car will always pass the test at the mot station , my brother owns it lol. and its so easy to trick the diesel smoke test with just a biro pen .
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I feel sorry for my neighbour, hes only a young lad and he has just bought a seat leon 2.0tdi fr 170bhp, with map and dpf delete, may cost him a couple grand to put right if it all goes ****up on top of the lower resale value of diesels to follow.
 
This is all a big fuss over nothing. It won't affect us in the UK and frankly I love my TDI and will get another when I eventually change.

I'm only on my second ever Diesel engined car having always driven petrol. It has squat to do with mpg or any other reason except that I just prefer Diesel engines, plain and simple.
 
We'll see.

I still think it's all a big fuss for nothing, I'm willing to bet my house on it that over the coming days one or two other manufacturers come out of the woodwork and admit or are exposed as doing the same.

I still have my 2004 Skoda Fabia vRS and the sh!t that comes out of its exhaust is sometimes unbelievable, and it still passed its 12th MOT the other day without any issue.

We'll be talking about another motor industry scandal next week.
 
Carefree69 said:
We'll see.

I still think it's all a big fuss for nothing, I'm willing to bet my house on it that over the coming days one or two other manufacturers come out of the woodwork and admit or are exposed as doing the same.

I still have my 2004 Skoda Fabia vRS and the sh!t that comes out of its exhaust is sometimes unbelievable, and it still passed its 12th MOT the other day without any issue.

We'll be talking about another motor industry scandal next week.
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I have no doubt they will as the oil fuel and car industry is bigger than anything we could even consider, its all about Illuminati and world order.
 
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