Improving ride quality with smaller wheels.

[TDents84]

Hi there,

first time poster. I recently purchased an 09 A3 S Line 1.8T with Koni FSD's fitted. It's a firm set up and as I'll likely be keeping the car for a few years I thought I'd look to reduce rim size from 18 to 17 or possibly even 16.

My question to the forum is, would reducing to a 17inch wheel make much of a difference? If not, is there anything else anyone can suggest to improve comfort (Other than selling the thing!)

Thanks

 

[SootySport]

I went from 18's to 17's, not a big difference but it is noticibly more comfy.
If the shocks are adjustable, back them of a couple of clicks.

 

[traindweller]

I have 16 inch on my 8P and then 17's on first a A4 and now on an 8V A3. I really notice the difference in ride and much prefer the 16 inch wheels against the 17's which I think are a lot harsher.

 

[audismart]

Stay on the 18s and fit eibach springs.

 

[Sayam]

The FSD aren't manually adjustable. The whole point of frequency selective damping (FSD) is that the shock does it for you.

The FSDs are a very comfortable damper so I'd look to change to Eibach Pro-Kit springs.

19" to 18" wheels you notice the difference on the A3. In my humblest of humble opinions the 8P chassis doesn't take well to 19" wheels, because you have to use tyres so thin they might as well be rubber bands.

From 18" to 17" I don't think you'd gain any comfort and you'd lose the look of the car too.

Incidentally, what tyres are you using, what tyre pressures are you running?

 

[fangio]

Not really the wheel size so much, as the depth of the tyres. As tyres get lower profile, they get harder. Really stupidly low is like going back to solid tyres!

 

[Gazwould]

FSD's are uprated springs with uprated dampers .

Change to progressive rate Eibach Pro with an oe Sachs Super Touring or Bilstein B4 damper .

 

[Sayam]

FSD's are uprated springs with uprated dampers .

Change to progressive rate Eibach Pro with an oe Sachs Super Touring or Bilstein B4 damper .

Gaz, I'm confused...the Koni FSDs are just dampers, where does the spring come into it?

Isn't B4 damper same as what Audi fitted from factory, whereas a slightly stiffer damper would be better matched to Pro kit springs?

 

[Gazwould]

S line suspension is well known to be on the harsh side for ride quality.

Eibach Pro with Bilstein B4 oe S line will sort.

Maybe Eibach with the FSD might work ? ?

 

[Sayam]

Maybe Eibach with the FSD might work ? ?

Yup that's the setup I want. Soon as my dampers go bouncy I'll swap with FSD.

I know Nigel had that setup on his car and he seemed to be really happy with it.

Do you know if it is the spring or the damper in the OE factory S-Line setup that ruins it?

 

[audismart]

Yup that's the setup I want. Soon as my dampers go bouncy I'll swap with FSD.

I know Nigel had that setup on his car and he seemed to be really happy with it.

Do you know if it is the spring or the damper in the OE factory S-Line setup that ruins it?

Its the springs on the s line setup that are the problem, stick on eibash pro springs with your original blistien dampers, sorted.

 

[Sayam]

Its the springs on the s line setup that are the problem, stick on eibash pro springs with your original blistien dampers, sorted.

That's the setup I have at the moment, it isn't comfy

Rear springs are way too stiff relative to the front

Unless dampers are tired as they have 100k to their name ...?

 

[TDents84]

Stay on the 18s and fit eibach springs.

Thanks for the reply. I know very little about suspension mods but to my understanding, fitting the Eibach springs lower the car and would therefore make the ride harder that it is currently? My main aim here is to soften the ride whilst ideally keeping the 18inch OE Wheels.

Also, if i were to change the springs would you advise keeping the FSDs or changing them out for Blistien dampers?

Cheers

 

[Gazwould]

This is it with cars , the car as oem is partly developed owing to costs .

It is not fully optimised and refined as this would add to the cost .

Like a remap is to engine management , Eibach is to suspension.

Eibach is the refinement .

 

[Sayam]

This is it with cars , the car as oem is partly developed owing to costs .

It is not fully optimised and refined as this would add to the cost .

Like a remap is to engine management , Eibach is to suspension.

Eibach is the refinement .

@TDents84 as Gaz said, although the Eibach springs will make the ride ever so slightly firmer, coupled with the FSDs it is more comfortable.

It is a misconception to assume soft ride = comfy that isn't the case. More importantly, springs stiffness matched to damper stiffness is the key..where Eibach Pro-Kit and FSD combo comes into it's own.

 

[Gazwould]

Eibach progressive springs are stiffer but only under hard cornering when the wider spaced stronger coils come into play .

They are often more comfortable around town than oem as the closer wound coils deal with the smaller imperfections better .

I can't comment on the FSD's but remember some probably out of date indifferent reviews .

In Germany Eibach Pro are often sold with Bilstein B4 dampers .

 

[Jake 61]

I'm not seeing the economics in this discussion at all.
I know the OP didn't fit the Koni's, but we are talking around £500 to buy, plus about £220 for Eibach springs.
For that kind of money, you are into decent coilovers, which makes it a bit of a no brainer.
Plus there would be nothing to shell out on new wheels.

 

[Gazwould]

Not from ebay Germany it isn't , spending money on good suspension is never wasted.

We could be taking as little as £110 in parts for Eibach springs to reslove this situation.

Coilovers by their design are on the hard side due to being made to cope when slammed .

A spring and damper for value of cost is the master of road compliancy .

 

[audismart]

Thanks for the reply. I know very little about suspension mods but to my understanding, fitting the Eibach springs lower the car and would therefore make the ride harder that it is currently? My main aim here is to soften the ride whilst ideally keeping the 18inch OE Wheels.

Also, if i were to change the springs would you advise keeping the FSDs or changing them out for Blistien dampers?

Cheers

This is not true, the pro springs will only lower the car by around 5mm from the s-line suspension and retain an OEM appearance, but irons out the harsh rebound you get from the cheap spring setup from audi which was to keep costs down, there are loads of A3 owners that have done this set up and are very happy with the end results and is the most prefered setup over most for comfort and to retain handling, if you go for the sportline eibach setup this will give you a lower stance of 20mm front and 15mm rear from the S-Line ride height, all stated lowered hights from suspension will be from standard ride hights, S-line ride hights are lower than standard ride hight.
You have blistein dampers as standard on the S-Line setup, so you stay standard dampers unless yours are shot.

 

[Sayam]

I'm not seeing the economics in this discussion at all.
I know the OP didn't fit the Koni's, but we are talking around £500 to buy, plus about £220 for Eibach springs.
For that kind of money, you are into decent coilovers, which makes it a bit of a no brainer.
Plus there would be nothing to shell out on new wheels.

Coilovers even at their softest setting are much stiffer than a good spring and damper combo.

I recently emailed a retailer asking about Koni Yellow adjustable shocks. They told me even at their softest setting they are around 15% stiffer than OE, so they advised me to go for FSDs for overall comfort.

 

[audismart]

Coilovers even at their softest setting are much stiffer than a good spring and damper combo.

I recently emailed a retailer asking about Koni Yellow adjustable shocks. They told me even at their softest setting they are around 15% stiffer than OE, so they advised me to go for FSDs for overall comfort.

Coilovers are a nightmare, have you ever seen a car bobbling down the road in front of you, yeah thats coilovers, perfect for nice smooth tracks but potholes and uneven roads with tarmac patches they dont like and they are stiffer over oem.

 

[Jake 61]

I hear what you are saying, but I have Weitec Coilovers fitted and the ride is a lot more comfortable than my old TDI was.
The car is also a daily drive and perfectly useable on any surface. (Don't get much in the way of smooth surfaces in the North of Scotland).

 

[Sayam]

Coilovers are a nightmare, have you ever seen a car bobbling down the road in front of you, yeah thats coilovers, perfect for nice smooth tracks but potholes and uneven roads with tarmac patches they dont like and they are stiffer over oem.

I agree, that's what I was saying, coilovers are usually stiffer than springs and dampers even at the coilover's softest setting.

I hear what you are saying, but I have Weitec Coilovers fitted and the ride is a lot more comfortable than my old TDI was.
The car is also a daily drive and perfectly useable on any surface. (Don't get much in the way of smooth surfaces in the North of Scotland).

Lots of people say this but I don't understand how stiffer suspension can be more comfortable. Other than the fact that some how the stiffness of the spring is matched well with the damper which makes it feel better?

 

[audismart]

I agree, that's what I was saying, coilovers are usually stiffer than springs and dampers even at the coilover's softest setting.



Lots of people say this but I don't understand how stiffer suspension can be more comfortable. Other than the fact that some how the stiffness of the spring is matched well with the damper which makes it feel better?

Stiff springs stop body roll in bends and rebound on braking, Its how the spring stiffens and the rebounds, the slower the rebound the more comfort and matched with a damper that isn't too firm will be a softer and slower rebound. So a stiffer spring will rebound quickly and more harshly with a firmer damper which is good if you need a car to settle quickly going through bends dips diverts and holes on track, but in street driving this becomes uncomfortable.
If you clench your hand into a fist and repeat quickly and hard you can make to air more turbulent around it, clench is more slowly and progressively then the air around your fist will be less turbulent which means more comfort to the occupants inside the car but retains handling.
Cheap springs are made using cheaper steels that are forged quickly with little thought to handling, if you add a slightly different compound to a spring and temper the steel at a different temperature then you get a different rebound rate, its more precise and lots of research goes into it, lot like a samurai sword.

 

[Meejaman]

Well I went from the standard Sport set up to Eibach Pro springs, dampers and anti roll bars. It improved the ride especially around town and transformed the handling. My wife commented that she no longer needed to slow down for bends!!!

I then switched from 17" to 16" wheels. Again it improved ride comfort. Other benefits of the change in wheel size include: improved acceleration, reduced fuel consumption and cheaper tyres.The ride is improved by the increased wall height of the tyre but also more importantly through a reduction in the unsprung mass of the whell/tyre combination. Go for the biggest reduction in unsprung mass you can achieve.

Other factors to improve the ride comfort include finding the optimum tyre pressures, ensuring you have a nice soft seat and eating lots to be as fat as possible to absorb the bumps.

 

[Gazwould]

Where will the upsizing ever end , 20's being talked about frequently .

As a static it's a hardon , out on the road dynamics = fail.

 

[audismart]

Where will the upsizing ever end , 20's being talked about frequently .

As a static it's a hardon , out on the road dynamics = fail.

I agree, but 16s on an S-Line will look pants, 19s start to look too big, even an RS3 runs 18s on the older model.

 

[Gazwould]

The sweet spot is 17 and 18" .

 

[audismart]

2nd that.

The sweet spot is 17 and 18" .

2nd that.

 

[Sayam]

I agree, but 16s on an S-Line will look pants, 19s start to look too big, even an RS3 runs 18s on the older model.

8P RS3 runs 19" wheels from factory if I remember correctly.

2nd that.

3rd that!

 

[SootySport]

8P RS3 runs 19" wheels from factory if I remember correctly.



3rd that!

Aha! We don't all have RS3's do we, just lowly A3 & S3's. 17" & 18" are just right for our old lumbering chassis, especially on our indifferent road surfaces. Drive an RS3 on French and German roads and it's a different experience.

 

[audismart]

8P RS3 runs 19" wheels from factory if I remember correctly.
I stand corrected.


3rd that!

 

[Sayam]

Aha! We don't all have RS3's do we, just lowly A3 & S3's. 17" & 18" are just right for our old lumbering chassis, especially on our indifferent road surfaces. Drive an RS3 on French and German roads and it's a different experience.

Agree 19 or 20 pushing it. There's no tyre, might as well be a rubber band lol.

 

[TDents84]

The FSD aren't manually adjustable. The whole point of frequency selective damping (FSD) is that the shock does it for you.

The FSDs are a very comfortable damper so I'd look to change to Eibach Pro-Kit springs.

19" to 18" wheels you notice the difference on the A3. In my humblest of humble opinions the 8P chassis doesn't take well to 19" wheels, because you have to use tyres so thin they might as well be rubber bands.

From 18" to 17" I don't think you'd gain any comfort and you'd lose the look of the car too.

Incidentally, what tyres are you using, what tyre pressures are you running?

Hi, thanks for the response, i'm on conti contact sport 5 tyres - 36 psi front and 30 rear. I think I'll likely get Eibach Pro-Kit springs from Damian although i'm still trying to get my head around the fact that the Eibach springs lower the car - how would lowering the car improve ride comfort? Ride comfort is my priority here.

 

[TDents84]

Well I went from the standard Sport set up to Eibach Pro springs, dampers and anti roll bars. It improved the ride especially around town and transformed the handling. My wife commented that she no longer needed to slow down for bends!!!

I then switched from 17" to 16" wheels. Again it improved ride comfort. Other benefits of the change in wheel size include: improved acceleration, reduced fuel consumption and cheaper tyres.The ride is improved by the increased wall height of the tyre but also more importantly through a reduction in the unsprung mass of the whell/tyre combination. Go for the biggest reduction in unsprung mass you can achieve.

Other factors to improve the ride comfort include finding the optimum tyre pressures, ensuring you have a nice soft seat and eating lots to be as fat as possible to absorb the bumps.

Thanks Meejaman! Good to hear that Eibach Pro-springs have helped ride around town, how about at motorway speeds, 70 or 80mph + ? The S-line springs at faster speeds are so skittish - it just wont settle.

Also, dont suppose you could upload of a picture of your Sportback on 16s?

 

[TDents84]

This is not true, the pro springs will only lower the car by around 5mm from the s-line suspension and retain an OEM appearance, but irons out the harsh rebound you get from the cheap spring setup from audi which was to keep costs down, there are loads of A3 owners that have done this set up and are very happy with the end results and is the most prefered setup over most for comfort and to retain handling, if you go for the sportline eibach setup this will give you a lower stance of 20mm front and 15mm rear from the S-Line ride height, all stated lowered hights from suspension will be from standard ride hights, S-line ride hights are lower than standard ride hight.
You have blistein dampers as standard on the S-Line setup, so you stay standard dampers unless yours are shot.

Cheers mate. Understanding the rebound has really helped. I think I'll go for the pro-springs and keep the Koni FSD's that are currently fitted. Thanks for your help.

 

[Sayam]

Cheers mate. Understanding the rebound has really helped. I think I'll go for the pro-springs and keep the Koni FSD's that are currently fitted. Thanks for your help.

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but if you do some google research on the FSD, they don't like hard work and will fail after 3 or 4 years. It's happened to lots of people so has put me off the FSD for my car.

Ideally I want to fit dampers and then never have to do it again for the time I keep the car...

 

[audismart]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but if you do some google research on the FSD, they don't like hard work and will fail after 3 or 4 years. It's happened to lots of people so has put me off the FSD for my car.

Ideally I want to fit dampers and then never have to do it again for the time I keep the car...

Surely a more progressive spring will make the dampers work less???

 

[Meejaman]

Thanks Meejaman! Good to hear that Eibach Pro-springs have helped ride around town, how about at motorway speeds, 70 or 80mph + ? The S-line springs at faster speeds are so skittish - it just wont settle.

Also, dont suppose you could upload of a picture of your Sportback on 16s?

The car is solid as a rock when making progress on everything from motorways to B roads.

I'm currently enjoying the fine roads of Scotland in my other car, so a picture will have to wait until we return in a week or so.

 

[TDents84]

The car is solid as a rock when making progress on everything from motorways to B roads.

I'm currently enjoying the fine roads of Scotland in my other car, so a picture will have to wait until we return in a week or so.

Hey man, thanks, when you say solid as a rock, do you mean uncomfortable / hard ride?