Facelift Diesel v Petrol engine

h5djr

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This is not another Diesel v Petrol thread but just some information I've picked up from today's Auto Express which could affect members choose when they come to change. People who dislikes diesel engines often quote the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) as one of the possible problems with a diesel engine although personally I never had any problems with the three diesel A3s fitted with one that I have owned.

But from 2017 all new VW (and therefore Audi) turbo petrol engines, starting with the 1.4 litre versions are going to be fitted with a particulate filter to reduce the emission of fine soot particles by up to 90 per cent.

So if anyone thinks the particulate filter is a problem on a diesel engine they will soon be fitted to petrol engines as well.
 
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This could actually cost them dearly. Some people will give diesels a wide berth due to the DPF, now they might think about looking elsewhere.
Could this be VW falling over themselves to attain for past sins?
 
This could actually cost them dearly. Some people will give diesels a wide berth due to the DPF, now they might think about looking elsewhere.
Could this be VW falling over themselves to attain for past sins?
Maybe, but it may well become a requirement for all manufacturers to do this. Better to be ahead of the game.
 
This is not another Diesel v Petrol thread but just some information I've picked up from today's Auto Express which could affect members choose when they come to change. People who dislikes diesel engines often quote the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) as one of the possible problems with a diesel engine although personally I never had any problems with the three diesel A3s fitted with one that I have owned.

But from 2017 all new VW (and therefore Audi) turbo petrol engines, starting with the 1.4 litre versions are going to be fitted with a particulate filter to reduce the emission of fine soot particles by up to 90 per cent.

So if anyone thinks the particulate filter is a problem on a diesel engine they will soon be fitted to petrol engines as well.
VW are not introducing this filter in 2017 to all 1.4's it will only be the Tiguan and the A7, not any A3's, and the rest will follow by 2022. Is it not a different type of filter though Dave, to those fitted to a diesel engine, as it's a Gasoline Particulate Filter and from I have read there is a low regeneration temperature, no complex regeneration strategy is needed.

I also quote what Christian Chappelle, head of powertrain at PSA Peugeot Citroën states: Higher exhaust gas temperatures mean that GPFs should be able to regenerate passively most of the time, which greatly simplifies the task of managing them – so much so that Chappelle doesn’t anticipate using an active regen strategy at all. Instead, he believes existing sensors and a sophisticated soot model will be enough to monitor the GPF with no additional hardware. “Gasoline is a completely different situation from diesel. It’s much easier to burn soot and you have far more opportunities during normal driving to achieve the right temperature,” he comments. “It just increases the cost if you start adding a lot of control systems, which would be a pity for our customers if those systems aren’t needed. We think we can prove that it will be sufficiently efficient without any systems to control it.”

Petrol engines do run at higher temperatures than diesels do so a regeneration may not be an issue like it is for diesels.
However, as all manufacturers will be following suit, there'll be no avoiding this.
 
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Thought VAG were developing a 1.5T petrol to replace the 1.4TFSI by 2017-18?? Or will it sit alongside the 1.4??
I've never had any issues with DPFs even with my driving bring 70% urban/extra urban. A good blast once every week or so has kept everything hunky dory for me.
 
Yes a 1.5 petrol engine is what I have heard as well, I guess it's difficult to know what the truth is these days ;-).
Also particulates in a petrol engine can be engineered out through the design of the injectors and the combustion chamber, only that might prove more expensive than fitting a dpf...
 
This is not another Diesel v Petrol thread but just some information I've picked up from today's Auto Express which could affect members choose when they come to change. People who dislikes diesel engines often quote the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) as one of the possible problems with a diesel engine although personally I never had any problems with the three diesel A3s fitted with one that I have owned.

But from 2017 all new VW (and therefore Audi) turbo petrol engines, starting with the 1.4 litre versions are going to be fitted with a particulate filter to reduce the emission of fine soot particles by up to 90 per cent.

So if anyone thinks the particulate filter is a problem on a diesel engine they will soon be fitted to petrol engines as well.
Yeah I read something about this the other week, slightly worrying to people who do a lot of short journeys!
 
According to the Auto Express the first engine to use this technology will be the 1.4 fitted the new VW Tiguan. It also says the TSI and TFSI petrols will use the same filtration technology found in most modern diesels. No doubt we will find out more as time goes on.
Having had three A3s with a DPF and no problems at all a particulate filter on either a diesel or petrol is OK with me. My choice for my next A3 will be between the 184 TDI and the 190 TFSI. When I purchased my existing 184 TDI it had to be s-tronic and quattro. The same is true of the existing 184 but with the 190 TFSI I can choose between manual, just s-tronic or s-tronic quattro. The only advantage of the non-quattro is the slightly bigger boot (and the lower price of course).
 
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Yeah I read something about this the other week, slightly worrying to people who do a lot of short journeys!
Possibly not according to what I have found out, petrol engines warm up quicker and run hotter, thus they do not suffer from the regen issues a diesel has...
 
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Possibly not according to what I have found out, petrol engines warm up quicker and run hotter, thus they do not suffer from the regen issues a diesel has...
Yeah that's a very good point. I've had diesels in the past that were always getting blocked/telling me to keep driving, it was a right pain in the rear ;)
 
Do the bigger diesel engines with Adblue still have a DPF that needs regenerating?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 
If VW group are doing it, everyone else will be doing it too. They have to meet some new legally mandated environmental objective, and you can be assured that GPF, the technology chosen to meet it, is the cheapest way to do it (but probably not the best)...
 
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If VW group are doing it, everyone else will be doing it too. They have to meet some new legally mandated environmental objective, and you can be assured that GPF, the technology chosen to meet it, is the cheapest way to do it (but probably not the best)...
As already stated, manufacturers are being forced into it by new emission laws and as the cost will be passed onto us anyway would we want the most expensive method?
 
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You're missing the point (which I admit, I didn't exactly labour)

The automotive industry has a well founded reputation for being a morally bankrupt bunch of ******** who will lobby, bodge, cheat and cut corners to avoid doing the job properly, especially when it comes to pollution and the environment. Audi are proven past masters at this.

Take your pick, catalytic converters, lean burn engines, the rise of diesel, or even the ubiquitous use of leaded petrol. All adopted and implemented by automakers because they were cheap, and used in preference to actually doing the job properly in the first place. All with long lasting consequences and lifetime costs for owners long after the warranty expires.

The method used is chosen because it's cheap for the makers to install, not for the owners to own. The planet and the owner suffering consequences 5, 20 or 50 years down the line is immaterial when the maker can install a cheap lash up that gets the car through type approval for a fraction of the price of doing it properly.
 
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I drove a Diesel A3 and it was slow as $4%t compared to my 2.0T A3.

But it did save on a lot of fuel though, but I couldn't be king of the road in it though so.
 
You're missing the point (which I admit, I didn't exactly labour)

The automotive industry has a well founded reputation for being a morally bankrupt bunch of ******** who will lobby, bodge, cheat and cut corners to avoid doing the job properly, especially when it comes to pollution and the environment. Audi are proven past masters at this.

Take your pick, catalytic converters, lean burn engines, the rise of diesel, or even the ubiquitous use of leaded petrol. All adopted and implemented by automakers because they were cheap, and used in preference to actually doing the job properly in the first place. All with long lasting consequences and lifetime costs for owners long after the warranty expires.

The method used is chosen because it's cheap for the makers to install, not for the owners to own. The planet and the owner suffering consequences 5, 20 or 50 years down the line is immaterial when the maker can install a cheap lash up that gets the car through type approval for a fraction of the price of doing it properly.
No I understand fully, however some of what you refer to might be correct, some isn't. This is the real world we live in though and profit is made for profit's sake. Makes me question that if you feel this way why do you own a car in the first place?
Who was it who stated every act you make is a political statement from turning on a light switch to flushing the toilet and yourself, by owning and using a vehicle, you are condoning the car manufacturers behavior..
 
Makes me question that if you feel this way why do you own a car in the first place?

Shoe leather = cruelty to cows, man.

Of course I own a car, I'm not some mad Eco-hermit living off moss and dolphin friendly tuna after all.

I work in an industry that is considered to be one of the most polluting in the UK, and am forced to drive in a vehicle deriving from the only sector whose pollution is worse. My carbon footprint is the size of a yeti because I live in a nation whose infrastructure has been shaped by and developed with the car in mind at the expense of all other transport types. In a less enlightened era we decided that personal transport was King, and devoted vast swathes of the national GDP to creating space for cars, simultaneously binning much of our established rail and water transport capability. Now we are paying the price for it in heavy air pollution, traffic, and automotive lobby's so powerful that they can directly influence and steer the regulatory bodies that are suppose to reign them in.

But, I'm under no illusions that the people who made the cars and sold them to me were motivated by anything other than £notes, or give even the tiniest **** about the environmental impact beyond what it costs them per unit to meet the regulations (be they environmental, fiscal, or even work and pay conditions regulations) that allow them to get product out the door and continue making money. A more cynical group is hard to imagine outside of the tobacco, petrochemical, arms or nuclear industries.

If VAG (or indeed any automaker) were genuinely serious about emissions control and minimising the effect of their products on the environment, then things like GPF wouldn't ever be needed. Internal combustion engines in cars would have died out decades ago, or be radically different to the things we have in our cars today.

If you really want to go green, do what I did and build yourself an electric pushbike. It leaves much to be desired in terms of weather protection, refinement, comfort, and the freedom to drive to the south of France on a whim. It doesn't have nappa leather or apple car play, and at 30mph it's like wrestling a wild boar, but on the plus side it costs pence to run, and the ability to ride it up a flight of stairs if the mood takes you opens up a vast array of alternate routes. It begs the question though; If I can build an EV with a 100 mile range In my shed with nothing more than a soldering iron and a pile of bits from eBay, why the hell cant Audi make a decent electric drive A3/S3?

They can of course, it's easy. But they won't make as much money so they'll keep punting out oil burners with incremental updates to keep public demand up until regulations make electric cars cheaper to make and more profitable than IC cars. After all, if you can make the same engine/car very slightly prettier, faster, more economical, more adorned with chrome/carbon/bubble wrap (what the Citroen are up to with that is anyone's guess) for a development cost of 15pence and sell 30,000 more of them, why would you go to the trouble of advancing society and saving the planet?


An example of "Green" transport, built by a bloke in a shed. More dangerous than anything else bar riding a chainsaw to work, less fun than an S3, probably still ultimately powered by coal, and despite having lots of carbon and massive six-pot drilled disc brakes, it's about as fashionable as herpes;

CB25C800-2999-4000-91D7-3749D7A3C062_zpsgtoatpob.jpg
 
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Shoe leather = cruelty to cows, man.

Of course I own a car, I'm not some mad Eco-hermit living off moss and dolphin friendly tuna after all................etc etc!

Good question but boy what a fantastic answer.....lol..the man's on fire today......if that is your ride you need to respray it Navarra however
 
Good question but boy what a fantastic answer.....lol..the man's on fire today......if that is your ride you need to respray it Navarra however

Now you mention it, my other bicycle build was also blue, and I have a Navarra S3 on order. Must be some kind of blue fixation.

Even Greener transport (in blue). Powered exclusivly by Stella Artios, pasta and Ham & Cheese sarnies. NOT capable of 30 mph using current engine except when going downhill;
7758E8F5-E6E0-4074-B30D-17D60C324A02_zpsbk1rfd0l.jpg
 
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"say... that's a nice bike"

I was nearly 100% sure when I posted that ...that it was you that had ordered Navarra...thankfully it was as it give my post more purpose!

My advice is ditch the carbs..stay on the liquids..it wont help your speed but by God it would be fun

Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
 
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This thread has lost the plot, completely, and I am baffled as to why it has turned into some rant, when it was started as a perfectly reasonable question by h5drj.
Perhaps we can get back on topic now?
 
This thread has lost the plot, completely, and I am baffled as to why it has turned into some rant, when it was started as a perfectly reasonable question by h5drj.
Perhaps we can get back on topic now?

It's not a rant, nor is it the action of a troll. I thought this was about the application of Particulate filters to petrol engines. An emissions abatement technique that VAG are about to apply to their range.

A discussion about VAG and the effectiveness and integrity of their supposedly improved emissions controls must surely reflect on their past failures and deceptions (and that of their peers). If that track record doesn't invite a hefty dose of scepticism then I dont know what does.
 
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Yea, far from off-topic, GSB post was entirely on topic, insightful and a joy to read.

I also note how h5drj has completely failed to acknowledge your point cuke2u.... That the GPF, while an additional bottleneck, is unlikely to have the same repercussions as the DPF does on a diesel car.
 
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Yea, far from off-topic, GSB post was entirely on topic, insightful and a joy to read.

I also note how h5drj has completely failed to acknowledge your point cuke2u.... That the GPF, while an additional bottleneck, is unlikely to have the same repercussions as the DPF does on a diesel car.
As far as I'm concerned all I was doing was giving some details I had read in a magazine. I was not expressing a view one way or the other. As far as I am concerned a DPF or GPF is no problem if one is fitted to a car I purchase but some members seem to think a DPF is a problem. My knowledge is limited to three A3s that I have owned that have had a DPF fitted and they have given me no problems at all. If others want to give more details of the GPF and it's possible effects that is entirely up to them. The more understanding we have of the possible effects the better when it comes to making a choice between a petrol or diesel engine. I assume that as the GPF is a particulate filter similar to a DPF it will have no effect on the CO2 that is produced by either type of engine. It will at this stage have no bearing on the model I decide to purchase. I'm sure cuke2u was not expecting me to acknowledge anything in his post.
 
As far as I'm concerned all I was doing was giving some details I had read in a magazine. I was not expressing a view one way or the other. As far as I am concerned a DPF or GPF is no problem if one is fitted to a car I purchase but some members seem to think a DPF is a problem. My knowledge is limited to three A3s that I have owned that have had a DPF fitted and they have given me no problems at all. If others want to give more details of the GPF and it's possible effects that is entirely up to them. The more understanding we have of the possible effects the better when it comes to making a choice between a petrol or diesel engine. I assume that as the GPF is a particulate filter similar to a DPF it will have no effect on the CO2 that is produced by either type of engine. It will at this stage have no bearing on the model I decide to purchase. I'm sure cuke2u was not expecting me to acknowledge anything in his post.

Yea thats fair enough. It was only really your last sentence I was referring to:

"So if anyone thinks the particulate filter is a problem on a diesel engine they will soon be fitted to petrol engines as well."

cuke2u provides a pretty compelling argument that the PF won't be an issue on a petrol like it is on a diesel, so could be a moot point. Appreciate you haven't had issues, but thats probably because your cars have either been newer cars (i.e. not had a chance to get sufficiently clogged), or more likely is that you drive a diesel how it should be driven, giving it plenty of chances to regenerate as they need to...

I did read a few articles suggesting that the introduction of direct injection petrol engines meant that many petrols could produce as much particulates as a diesel, and therefore the need for a PF, but the data doesn't seem to conform to this. Additional testing in the wake of the diesel gate has shown petrols still produce far less (intact figures I found had my 3.0TFSI V6 at much lower levels than the 1.4TFSI CoD???). The need for a GPF seems to be largely driven by tougher EU emission regulations....As GSB states, why they can just all offer us decent EV alternatives and be done with it is frustrating, since the ICE can only go so far with emissions....particularly diesels! But as he also states, we know fine well why they won't, which is why its great Tesla are forcing the issue.

I'll miss my V6 there's no doubting that, but the advantages of EV more than make up for it for me...
 
Well I guess we will need to see what solutions other manufacturers bring to the argument and it seems that maybe VW have decided no to go on the cheapest route. As the head of powertrain at PSAPeugeotCitroën alludes to a modification of the injectors can keep within the regulation proposed by the EU, which, if it works, will probably be cheaper.