Facelift Auto Start/Stop Concerns
- Thread starter ThatBlueS3
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And the turbo after hard driving! I switch it off now, first thing I do as the car sparks up.
More concerned about the turbo having to keep respooling, prefer to keep it spinning.
The other hassle on the stronic is it "stalling" at a roundabout. A gentle foot on the brake is needed. Easier just to switch it off
The other hassle on the stronic is it "stalling" at a roundabout. A gentle foot on the brake is needed. Easier just to switch it off
ThatBlueS3
Registered User
Maybe I'm missing something. Is this not a legitimate question to ask? I'd assume that the cars that do not have this feature experience fewer starter failures?
I have a stop/start memory module fitted so I disable S/S with the switch on the dash and it remembers it's off next time I get in and drive the car.
Last few cars I've had with stop / start, I automatically switch it off as part of my routine before moving off
The starter and battery are specifically designed for start/stop operation, so l wouldn't worry too much about any wear and tear issues on these elements.
Personally, I think you'd be quite correct to worry about that... Manufacturers will tell you they've beefed up the starters to cope with the additional workload, I'm not quite so convinced. It still looks like a standard starter, it certainly isn't any bigger or heavier, something I'd expect to see for a motor that's likely to work 20 or 30 times harder than a starter on a car without stop-start.
ThatBlueS3
Registered User
And that's why I'm asking the question. I plan on keeping the car beyond its warranty so was wondering if this feature could end up costing me more in the long run compared to the little bit that I'm saving in fuel costs now.
It's my opinion that stop-start is just one part of a suite of measures introduced in a knee jerk reaction to problem of complying with emissions regulation on new car sales, and not a well considered solution to the problem of how to make the car more environmentally friendly through its life-cycle.
It'd take an engineer of considerable credibility to convince me that the constant thermal cycling of the engine can be in any way harmless, and that the thimblefulls of fuel saved can in any way offset the environmental impact of making all the new starters, turbos and other high wear parts they'll need.
That's why I turn mine off, and I've no intention whatsoever of keeping the car beyond its warranty.
@Rob2k68 Where did you get this memory module?
Flying Scotsman
Registered User
I as @Audi Bairn does, switch it off on start up and yes I am concerned about starter wear as others are. I never even thought about possible turbo issues and that is a very valid concern, especially after a long hot run, in my opinion.
I may even fork out the cash for the Carista OBD module to disable start/stop. It is not very expensive and you get one months usage of the app for free. Also it has the mirror dip feature which I can not enable on my car as I thought I would. It appears you have to have folding mirrors to normally program this feature, which I do not have. This would be a bonus for this OBD modules low cost....$40.00 US
I may even fork out the cash for the Carista OBD module to disable start/stop. It is not very expensive and you get one months usage of the app for free. Also it has the mirror dip feature which I can not enable on my car as I thought I would. It appears you have to have folding mirrors to normally program this feature, which I do not have. This would be a bonus for this OBD modules low cost....$40.00 US
Will dig out the link first thing in the morning mate ......
OBD11/Carista/VCDS are all capable of doing this but you get an annoying stop/start unavailable icon in the DIS which is why I switched to the memory module.
DorsetGuy
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I find if you never turn the car on it wears out much slower and uses less fuel.
Although whilst we are on the subject will the loudspeakers wear out faster the louder the music is?
Although whilst we are on the subject will the loudspeakers wear out faster the louder the music is?
Flying Scotsman
Registered User
I've often wondered this, especially considering a turbo charged engine, but it does seem that manufacturers have gone to lengths to improve the components of the car to suit an engine with stop/start, some of which are outlined here:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/stop-start-long-term-impact-your-car-s-engine
Of course, there exists very little hard data, such as the number of starter motor failures and whether this is increased in cars with stop/start vs those not. I suspect even this data would be hard to interpret due to a range of confounding effects though. Most obvious one to me is that newer cars are more likely to have stop/start, so your comparison group will be much older cars. Still...if the rate of failure is higher, it's probably pretty damning....
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/stop-start-long-term-impact-your-car-s-engine
Of course, there exists very little hard data, such as the number of starter motor failures and whether this is increased in cars with stop/start vs those not. I suspect even this data would be hard to interpret due to a range of confounding effects though. Most obvious one to me is that newer cars are more likely to have stop/start, so your comparison group will be much older cars. Still...if the rate of failure is higher, it's probably pretty damning....
Last time I saw some reliability data in this area, there was no discernable change in failure rate between a vehicle with start/stop and one without.
The strategy that determines whether start/stop is available is very complicated. Engine temperature, electrical load, battery charge estimate, other torque demands and a whole load of other stuff are factored into the strategy. From memory, I think one VM did have an estimate of turbo temperature too.
The strategy that determines whether start/stop is available is very complicated. Engine temperature, electrical load, battery charge estimate, other torque demands and a whole load of other stuff are factored into the strategy. From memory, I think one VM did have an estimate of turbo temperature too.
I enjoy being cynical as much as the next guy...particularly with manufacturers creating products that have a finite shelf life, as it makes perfect business sense....but....I think we have to concede that maybe the engineers have already thought about the inherent issues here and come up with a solution...
As you say, it would stick out like a sore thumb by now if there was a major risk of premature component failure, and either they are doing a good job of hiding it (as we all know...VAG are great at covering up their cheating....
) or it doesn't exist...Start/Stop has been fairly common since about 2011, so it's not as if it hasn't had time to manifest yet...?
One of the major enhancements made to allow the auto start/stop feature is more accurate crankshaft and camshaft position sensors. The ECU knows exactly what position (Cyl at TDC) the engine has shut down at. When ready to start, it takes this position into account and uses the combustion process to aid with the restart using the relevant cylinder. This is why engines that have auto SS do not need as much starter cranking time versus older engines with analog crank position sensors. This shorter "work time" allows for the smaller (or same) starter sizes. There are also more advancements in the rotor and stater design which allow for the starter to handle the extended workload. And yes, this feature was mainly created to lower emissions which will thus meet CAFE standards for the entire brand (and yes I am sure they market better MPG...)
Also, there are a lot of other parameters that the ECU calculates in order to allow for proper engine shutdown (like you have mentioned above):
Engine coolant and oil temp, brake and throttle pedal positions, vehicle speed / rolling direction, 12V battery condition, HVAC requirements, steering wheel input just to name a few.
In a nut shell will the starter work long past warranty? Hard to say, all the engineering is mainly done to make the vehicle components last to at least 4 yr or 50,000 mile mark as this is where Audi (or the 3rd party vendor Audi uses) would have to pay for the replacement. Outside of warranty is anyone's guess. The reality is, if they made everything last as long as it could, there would be a larger decrease in sales due to cars lasting longer than they already are.
Very straight forward mate takes about 20 minutes. You unpin 4 wires from the connector block and insert them into the module which then connects back into where the wires were originally. Nothing is cut and it's easily reversible. I can ping you over the instructions if you PM me your email.
For all you diesel drivers out there. Start stop has to be healthier for the environment, given the bad press diesel emissions are getting in the press at the moment.
Or perhaps you'd rather sit in stationary traffic and poison us petrol heads around you
Or perhaps you'd rather sit in stationary traffic and poison us petrol heads around you
Just plain annoyed me, so raised the voltage threshold via VCDS on about day 7 of ownership, and now it never stops the engine.
Benefit of the start/stop module is not seeing the A slash symbol on the VC.. but works for me.
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Benefit of the start/stop module is not seeing the A slash symbol on the VC.. but works for me.
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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For S Tronic I have just got used to slipping the lever across to manual when coming up to junctions, that way it never cuts in.
When pulling out into fast moving traffic on a dual carriageway, with no slip road, its not that convenient when you are just about to make a break for it and the engine cuts out and then restarts, thankfully with Quattro and 310BHP it is less of an issue.
When pulling out into fast moving traffic on a dual carriageway, with no slip road, its not that convenient when you are just about to make a break for it and the engine cuts out and then restarts, thankfully with Quattro and 310BHP it is less of an issue.
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I'm another one who always switches it off too. Quicker warm up phase (so less fuel burnt getting up to running temp once on m'way), less w&t on battery & starter system. The 'extra' fuel I'm burning is insignicant when you consider 5 miles down the road there's giant cruise ships sat in port burning fuel increasing emissions into the atmosphere which supposedly 'cannot be measured' wtf!?!.
I agree with your conclusion, but not with your arguments...Just to challenge you on a couple of points, if I may
'Quicker warm up phase', but the stop/start wont kick in until the car is up to operating temperature and a host of other parameters outlined by other members, so that's not really a concern is it? I only drive my car once a week, and run a dashcam that operates until the battery gets to 11.8v, so I rarely drive long enough for the S/S to even be activated.
'Less W&T on battery and starter motor', sure I can see the logic here, but again, components have been adapted to make up for this, again as highlighted by other posts, so 'theoretically' shouldn't be a concern. But I can appreciate you wanting to err on the side of caution here.
Finally, 'The 'extra' fuel I'm burning is insignicant when you consider 5 miles down the road there's giant cruise ships sat in port burning fuel increasing emissions into the atmosphere which supposedly 'cannot be measured' wtf!?!', but if millions of cars all save fuel by implementing this technology, then the insignificant amount becomes significant, does it not? Not sure what you mean by 'they cannot be measured'? It seems well documented to me that they are horrendously polluting, just as with air travel amongst other things. Besides, I dont see this being an argument against the implementation of clever technologies in millions of privately owned cars. Just because there are other things that are bad, doesn't negate the problem with car pollution as well. I say we should implement this technology AND tackle the big hitters like cruise ships.
Of course, this is all well and good assuming the new technology doesn't hinder the car in other ways, hence this thread...
Now if you just find it irritating, then go right ahead and switch it off...! I personally like it when sitting in traffic for a little while as the silence is quite nice...On the S5, the S/S doesnt work unless your foot is firmly held on the brake, so its pretty pointless when paired with hill hold. I have learned how much pressure to apply to get hill hold to activate, but not S/S. I then press and hold the brake when I want S/S due to a longer than usual traffic stop.
Think it's different on the S3 though?
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No worries I'm happy to be challenged on my points.
Warm up phase - My commute is approx 2 miles normal roads, 38 miles m'way & then 2 miles normal roads again. The first 2 miles has approx 4 sets of traffic lights plus various stop/start traffic intervals. If I switch off the function by the time I join the m'way I have 3 led bars of water temp showing, obviously the more important fluid the engine oil is still considerably colder (warm up phase is where most wear occurs). If I allow the stop/start to do its thing I have 1 possibly 2 led bars of water temp showing by the time I join the m'way at most.
W&T - My stop/start will stop the engine before the normal running temp 4 led bars is showing btw. At the other end of the commute I don't wish to heat soak the turbo so it makes sense to allow the engine to continue running rather than stop at the first roundabout after the slip road & then keep stop/start cycling the final two miles. Without stop/start 1 starter activation over my total journey length, with stop/start possibly 50+ starter activations, so considerably more wear on the starter motor. As we now use AGM batteries memory effect is less of an issue so in practice the battery should be fine. Components adapted to cope with the extra workloads?, I'd probably disagree as Audi still have one of the worst manufacturers policies out there - 3yrs or 60k miles, when for example BMW offer unlimited mileage over the same period. Not much faith in their own product is there?.
Extra fuel - I think there is a greater benefit in getting the car up to running temp a.s.a.p rather than waiting until I'm on the m'way, rather than saving the small amount of fuel being burnt in the two miles prior. My point about the cruise ships is due to concerns about air pollution around Southampton where there are talks of bringing in a ban on older vehicles entering the city where points have been raised about the pollution caused by the cruise ships having some sort of enviromental levy / tax against them where it was countered by the council that 'they couldn't accurately record' how polluting they were... what they actually mean is they don't want to upset Cunard, Carnival etc & have them up sticks to Liverpool !.
To be fair my experience is going to be at the extreme opposite to most forum users due to the type of usage my vehicle has & will continue to do so for hopefully many more reliable years. (Just passed 3yrs & 54k miles).
Warm up phase - My commute is approx 2 miles normal roads, 38 miles m'way & then 2 miles normal roads again. The first 2 miles has approx 4 sets of traffic lights plus various stop/start traffic intervals. If I switch off the function by the time I join the m'way I have 3 led bars of water temp showing, obviously the more important fluid the engine oil is still considerably colder (warm up phase is where most wear occurs). If I allow the stop/start to do its thing I have 1 possibly 2 led bars of water temp showing by the time I join the m'way at most.
W&T - My stop/start will stop the engine before the normal running temp 4 led bars is showing btw. At the other end of the commute I don't wish to heat soak the turbo so it makes sense to allow the engine to continue running rather than stop at the first roundabout after the slip road & then keep stop/start cycling the final two miles. Without stop/start 1 starter activation over my total journey length, with stop/start possibly 50+ starter activations, so considerably more wear on the starter motor. As we now use AGM batteries memory effect is less of an issue so in practice the battery should be fine. Components adapted to cope with the extra workloads?, I'd probably disagree as Audi still have one of the worst manufacturers policies out there - 3yrs or 60k miles, when for example BMW offer unlimited mileage over the same period. Not much faith in their own product is there?.
Extra fuel - I think there is a greater benefit in getting the car up to running temp a.s.a.p rather than waiting until I'm on the m'way, rather than saving the small amount of fuel being burnt in the two miles prior. My point about the cruise ships is due to concerns about air pollution around Southampton where there are talks of bringing in a ban on older vehicles entering the city where points have been raised about the pollution caused by the cruise ships having some sort of enviromental levy / tax against them where it was countered by the council that 'they couldn't accurately record' how polluting they were... what they actually mean is they don't want to upset Cunard, Carnival etc & have them up sticks to Liverpool !.
To be fair my experience is going to be at the extreme opposite to most forum users due to the type of usage my vehicle has & will continue to do so for hopefully many more reliable years. (Just passed 3yrs & 54k miles).
Good points well made! Surprised that the S/S does kick in before it's up to optimal temp, and can definitely see your argument in that case.
Love the obvious hypocrisy regarding cruise ships by your council! Almost Trump-esque in their pitiful attempt to justify their policy...!
dpaz
Registered User
As already said, S/S has been around a while. The issue or "scandal" would have come out in the wash by now.
Even if it does fail, a new starter motor isn't exactly going to break the bank.
Even if it does fail, a new starter motor isn't exactly going to break the bank.
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I think some of the reason for my s/s functioning at a shorter interval to most on here is I use the car daily so obviously it's starting at a higher battery charge level than using as an easy example your car that has a considerably lower usage, so potentially is already at a lower charge than mine & hence why the s/s doesn't want to cut in so early?. If you really want to put s/s to the test try a journey in Southampton city centre it must have more sets of traffic lights per square mile than anywhere else in the country lol!.
5th Gear did this video. All of you have prob seen it but its here just incase you want to re-watch it. Mentions nothing about reliability but MPG went up by 9 MPG with it switched on.
Bear in mind that they are using a 2012 Megane so i would have thought the figures could be better now as the tech has evolved...
Bear in mind that they are using a 2012 Megane so i would have thought the figures could be better now as the tech has evolved...
Oh I completely understand the point about battery charge, my point was that I am surprised it is not taking into account other important parameters before kicking in as well, with oil temps being one of them. Suggested by this member that it does account for it:
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Link from Audi UK website so obviously not too in depth & doesn't clarify if oil or/& water temp measured, but most of the parameters directly relate to battery loading rather than engine efficiency / temp I'd suggest. -
https://www.audi.co.uk/glossary/s/start-stop-system.html
To be fair if my driving was more town based I'd agree that s/s would be more of a benefit to the local enviroment & have no issues with anyone that chooses to use s/s all of the time either. IMHO it's more of a short term fudge & we're all considerably more enviromentally friendly anyhow than if we were using an old school Morris Minor with a carburettor (if you ignore the pollution from producing all of our cars that is!).
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+1. Me too. It is the best ideas for our 8V's
I left here the DIY (PDF in Spanish): http://www.asociacionsantabarbara.com/imagenes/perfil_a3/FrA1l3_Brico_Modulo_S&S_A3.pdf
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S/S for me cuts in when the weather is warm (above 9c I think) even if the engine is still cold. I suspect this condition (ticking over with engine still cold) is best to avoid so S/S is valuable in this case. Idling when cold will extend warm up period (general engine wear) and consume extra fuel. Best to be driving the car actively (albeit gently) during warm up period.
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DJAlix
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Will be putting a post up in the next few days re my module
