Just crashed (its bad)
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Happy Grumpz
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My French partner and all previous have showered - I would have sent them to the guillotine if they hadn't!
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So here is my winter tyre dilemma, from today the temperature in my area is forecast to be 10/11 deg for the next ten days. This month alone I would have swapped my tyres around three times. Yes, there could be a case for cross-climates.
Winter tyre guys, please do not dictate and preach about the virtues of winter tyres, I am well aware of their advantages. Also, do not make unhelpful comments like, 'you need to get out more' or 'oh, you could if you had winter tyres'.
Winter tyre guys, please do not dictate and preach about the virtues of winter tyres, I am well aware of their advantages. Also, do not make unhelpful comments like, 'you need to get out more' or 'oh, you could if you had winter tyres'.
The comments on tyres are general comments. I didn't see anywhere people telling you specifically Fozzie1960 that 'you' have to do this or that. It is clear that you have your own ideas and good luck to you.
As for changing tyres every time the temperature is a bit milder - I'm sure you are smart enough to know that it is not the case.
People share ideas and thoughts on the forum. You are not forced to accept them nor are you dictated to. No one will be kicking down your door with a jackboot.
Saying all that I did see a few harsh comments that are best avoided. The subject of these tyres is a sensitive one when we all suffer from I'll prepared drivers.
We all hate when we have an accident and providing ideas to avoid it should be encouraged. Perhaps you should consider if an open forum is the really your thing?
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‘Twas only intended as a bit of festive mirth.
I’ll sit in the naughty corner for an hour and reflect how I can be more helpful.
Still think winter tyres are the way forward though.
Hey we all great grumpy near Christmas. I for one will be getting my top hat and cape out soon for my annual bah- humbug.
Perhaps you could change the avatar from Fozzie to the 2 grumpy old men that were up in the gods - just for the festive period?
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Perhaps you could change the avatar from Fozzie to the 2 grumpy old men that were up in the gods - just for the festive period?
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Hey we all great grumpy near Christmas. I for one will be getting my top hat and cape out soon for my annual bah- humbug.
Perhaps you could change the avatar from Fozzie to the 2 grumpy old men that were up in the gods - just for the festive period?
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
I will admit to being grumpy sometimes, but I’m not changing my avatar
I see your point, but it's not like winter tyres explode if it's a bit milder so you can just leave them on. People use them all the year round in fact, but I wouldn't be recommending that for wear and grip reasons.
I think the 'oh, you could if you had winter tyres' quip was more for cake2u because he's already told us he just doesn't go out in his car when it's snowy. It's great that he can do that and sit and relax but not all of us are able which is where the joke came from and the discussion on winter tyres overall.
I think this has been done to death now and the people that have/do use them will continue and those that don't see the point won't. That's fine, so long as neither crash into me then it doesn't really matter to me too much. Haha
Err, no I don't go out if I don't need too and if the conditions are too dangerous, unlike the fools who don't heed the warnings and get stuck or have an accident with someone who can drive in the conditions. In fact, usually, when there is some snow, I like to go for a drive to test mine and the car's ability to drive in those conditions if it's safe to do so. However, if I need to take my partner to work and the conditions aren't brilliant I will drive the fiesta as it will, by design, have more grip and traction than my A4, without winter tyres.
With the greatest respect please get my name right and don't put words into my mouth.
I don't also understand why the winter tyre evangelists have got involved in here with their mission that if you don't have these fitted then you are a some kind of subspecies. It is very clear in this case, as my arguments are proving, winter tyres would be just as good as chocolate ones as the issue was down to a lack of grip, not traction, as the OP is stating...
With the greatest respect please get my name right and don't put words into my mouth.
I don't also understand why the winter tyre evangelists have got involved in here with their mission that if you don't have these fitted then you are a some kind of subspecies. It is very clear in this case, as my arguments are proving, winter tyres would be just as good as chocolate ones as the issue was down to a lack of grip, not traction, as the OP is stating...
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Sorry for the incorrect name, don't quite know why I typed it like that. I wasn't having a go, I was merely pointing out where the comment had come from.
In terms of putting words in your mouth, I do believe you're the one that said if the conditions aren't suitable then you don't go out (below). Although maybe taken slightly out of context, the argument from people on here is that if there's snow then the conditions aren't (technically) suitable for summer tyres.
I agree that if you hit ice then you are going to have very little grip, but even in those circumstances you still have more with winter tyres than with summer ones on. There's plenty data available on the internet to back this up.
I know that you don't think they're needed at all if you drive slow enough, but they do definitely help grip and traction in the conditions they're designed for which isn't debatable. I fully recognise that you don't fit them because you think they're a waste of money, the above is my point though, not that people have to fit them, which I think is what is coming across to you.
oliquattro
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Cuke, are you still actually suggesting that winter tyres don’t increase grip on ice?
The OP has seriously damaged his car and you are saying that winter tyres would have been useless.
You clearly haven’t used winter tyres and to keep saying they’re useless is both highly irresponsible and ignorant.
Just to make this clear....winters help you STOP AND TURN not just get moving. They are truly excellent on ice and snow.
You wouldn’t use winters in summer so PLEASE stop discouraging people from using winters in winter!
There is literally no debate here....if you want superior grip in ice and snow, use winters. If you don’t care, use summers. Simple.
The OP has seriously damaged his car and you are saying that winter tyres would have been useless.
You clearly haven’t used winter tyres and to keep saying they’re useless is both highly irresponsible and ignorant.
Just to make this clear....winters help you STOP AND TURN not just get moving. They are truly excellent on ice and snow.
You wouldn’t use winters in summer so PLEASE stop discouraging people from using winters in winter!
There is literally no debate here....if you want superior grip in ice and snow, use winters. If you don’t care, use summers. Simple.
Nickfrog
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You are probably judging other people by your own binary standards. You don't need them and that's fine. But you keep saying they are not needed just because you don't need them. Different people have different circumstances and mobility requirements. That doesn't make them wrong or evangelists, that makes them...different.
I do not think they are a waste of money at all and I do not tell other people what tyres they should fit neither. I am merely stating I do not need them and my driving record of over 47 years is proof enough. Perhaps other drivers do because they cannot cope with either a dusting of snow.
As the OP stated, having quattro gave a sense of overconfidence, it seems to me that winter tyres are giving you all the same.
oliquattro, I do winter tyres have some benefit on ice, but the margins are small, too small to be of a benefit, only studded or spiked tyres will have a major impact. However once a tyre has lost it's grip that's it and it doesn't matter if you 2, 4, or eight wheel drive, the forces of physics will dictate what happens and the OP's statement is proof of this.
As the OP stated, having quattro gave a sense of overconfidence, it seems to me that winter tyres are giving you all the same.
oliquattro, I do winter tyres have some benefit on ice, but the margins are small, too small to be of a benefit, only studded or spiked tyres will have a major impact. However once a tyre has lost it's grip that's it and it doesn't matter if you 2, 4, or eight wheel drive, the forces of physics will dictate what happens and the OP's statement is proof of this.
I would argue against your comment for ice. There are plenty videos showing the difference between winter, all season and summer tyres on ice, the results showing that the winter tyres once again have a massive advantage. I see your logic with grip, but that's like saying once your car starts to understeer you've completely lost your grip and will crash. The tyres may be sliding when you understeer but there is still friction there and the car is still turning a little. In my head that analogy works, don't know if anyone else does...
As for them being a waste of money, you literally said that in a previous post just because there wasn't snow forecast and was a bit warmer than it has been. If it's in the operating window for the tyres for basically 4-6 months of the year, bar the occasional week, then it's not a waste of money in my eyes.
Yes no need to waste MY money, this has, once again, turned into a debate about choice and winter tyres, which it seems I am not supposed to have obviously. My decision, for me is correct, if other people wish to have winter tyres that is entirely up to them, and they may well drive in the conditions that require them, I do not.
However, please do not try to force your decisions on to me but I still stand by the fact that a four wheel drive car has no more grip than a front wheel drive, that cannot be disputed.
However, please do not try to force your decisions on to me but I still stand by the fact that a four wheel drive car has no more grip than a front wheel drive, that cannot be disputed.
@blackb9er any update from the garage? Your thread has turned into a bit of a tyre debate haha!
Quite correct, I feel everyone needs to back off and get back on topic. This should not be a debate about tyres as the event has already happened...
oliquattro
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Cuke, I drove on solid ice for hundreds of miles at -20 in Switzerland with winter tyres, I don’t know why you keep saying winters don’t work on ice. It’s laughable. You can stop and turn fine. Yes on solid ice.
Have you seen the videos of summer vs winter tyres on an ICE RINK?
This is like debating Marmite tastes great with someone who has never tasted Marmite. It’s pointless.
Winters are much superior to summers in every aspect in icy and snowy conditions. There is no debate. Black ice, white ice, rainbow coloured glittery ice....it doesn’t matter, winters are superior.
Video below demonstrates winters on SOLID ICE
Have you seen the videos of summer vs winter tyres on an ICE RINK?
This is like debating Marmite tastes great with someone who has never tasted Marmite. It’s pointless.
Winters are much superior to summers in every aspect in icy and snowy conditions. There is no debate. Black ice, white ice, rainbow coloured glittery ice....it doesn’t matter, winters are superior.
Video below demonstrates winters on SOLID ICE
Something odd about that video as there is no cadence braking, which should be taking place automatically and are all the tyres the same size? Are the 'winter tyres in fact studless tyres, and are they different? https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tre...ed/snow-tires-studded-tires-vs-studless-tires But what has this to do with my original statement that when it comes to grip quattro is no better than front wheel drive and the original post?
Perhaps instead of hijacking the thread and turning it into a debate about winter versus summer tyres you should start your own one. But not in the a4 forum as it isn't model reletive. That way you would not find me, and other drivers who possess enough skill to drive in the snow, taking part...
Perhaps instead of hijacking the thread and turning it into a debate about winter versus summer tyres you should start your own one. But not in the a4 forum as it isn't model reletive. That way you would not find me, and other drivers who possess enough skill to drive in the snow, taking part...
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I do think it is time to put this one to bed. Let's all make a New Years resolution not to discuss winter/summer tyres again.
Merry Christmas to one and all
Merry Christmas to one and all
You too Fozzie1960 and all the best for the new year, and that goes out to all. We're off to our lodge soon, with a hot tub, where we can escape from the xmas sillyness and have a curry on the 25th...
oliquattro
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Hahaha you’re simply using this to justify why you don’t have quattro and don’t have winter tyres. Diddums.
Winters are VASTLY superior to summers in snow and ice.....end of debate. Solid ice just to clarify
Anyone who says otherwise are braindead or lying.
I do not actually think anybody has said that winters are not superior to summers in snow and ice.Hahaha you’re simply using this to justify why you don’t have quattro and don’t have winter tyres. Diddums.
Winters are VASTLY superior to summers in snow and ice.....end of debate. Solid ice just to clarify
Anyone who says otherwise are braindead or lying.
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I'm never going to argue the superiority of winter tyres , combined with quattro must be a formidable winter winner where others seriously struggle .
Depends where you live hugely , seems the worst conditions here are a one in 6 year event , but at it's worst only lasts a fortnight .
Summer's for me .
Birmingham and North , I wouldn't hesitate to use separate summer and winter tyres .
As cuke2u has said 2wd with winters are better than 4wd with summer , but it's his choice and I assume he's South ?
The dynamics are hard to understand to some , a bit like why your deepest tread tyres should be on the rear regardless of fwd , 4wd or rwd .
Depends where you live hugely , seems the worst conditions here are a one in 6 year event , but at it's worst only lasts a fortnight .
Summer's for me .
Birmingham and North , I wouldn't hesitate to use separate summer and winter tyres .
As cuke2u has said 2wd with winters are better than 4wd with summer , but it's his choice and I assume he's South ?
The dynamics are hard to understand to some , a bit like why your deepest tread tyres should be on the rear regardless of fwd , 4wd or rwd .
oliquattro
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According to cuke, you just need skill! It’s laughable really.
He also suggested winters would have been useless in maybe preventing the OP’s crash.
What sort of idiot suggests winters would have been useless when the poor guy actually smashed his car up ON ICE?
Also what sort of idiot dissuades people from using winters when he has NEVER used winters? It’s braindead I’m done.
Down south(ish) here Northants actually. I have no real need for winter tyres here even when it snows. I would imagine they are better when the white stuff comes. but just not a necessity everywhere.
Yes, up north where it's a little grim
they would definitely see more use.
Yes, up north where it's a little grim
they would definitely see more use.
Jesus Christ! I agree with @Fozzie1960 lets stop this winter tyre debate. The OP had an accident and decided to share his experience and frustration with the people in the forum, and possibly some information on the car repair process and cost of a mistake.
As a forum we should be supporting the OP, and hoping it gets sorted soon with minimal expense. In an ideal world I'm sure they wouldn't want to be in their current position.
@blackb9er - Any updates on repair progress?
As a forum we should be supporting the OP, and hoping it gets sorted soon with minimal expense. In an ideal world I'm sure they wouldn't want to be in their current position.
@blackb9er - Any updates on repair progress?
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Fascinating read.
For me, living in a town by the sea in the south, I've never ever considered spending money on a spare set of wheels and tyres to use for a few months of the year. I do accept that wide low profile summer tyres are pretty useless on snow and even more so on ice, and that on the 2 occasions in the last 10 years when I've actually had a slippery problem (without a crash), winter tyres would almost certainly have been helpful. In fact I doubt there's more than 5 mornings all winter (on average) that I even have to wait while the windscreen defrosts!
When the weather has been that bad that I'd rather not even try to drive in it, I've been able to get a train to work and simply re-arrange meetings that I was expecting to drive to.
Basically, for me, winters would be a waste of money, and that's a fact.
That of course doesn't mean that winters are waste of money for others and if I lived 'up north' where the winters are apparently harsher, and if I had to drive a lot on minor and country roads where the surface is going to be less predictable, then I can see a very good argument for both quatro and winters.
Horses for course I guess.
Have a nice Christmas everyone, and drive those new cars carefully
Oh, and blackb9er, I hope the car gets sorted quickly.
For me, living in a town by the sea in the south, I've never ever considered spending money on a spare set of wheels and tyres to use for a few months of the year. I do accept that wide low profile summer tyres are pretty useless on snow and even more so on ice, and that on the 2 occasions in the last 10 years when I've actually had a slippery problem (without a crash), winter tyres would almost certainly have been helpful. In fact I doubt there's more than 5 mornings all winter (on average) that I even have to wait while the windscreen defrosts!
When the weather has been that bad that I'd rather not even try to drive in it, I've been able to get a train to work and simply re-arrange meetings that I was expecting to drive to.
Basically, for me, winters would be a waste of money, and that's a fact.
That of course doesn't mean that winters are waste of money for others and if I lived 'up north' where the winters are apparently harsher, and if I had to drive a lot on minor and country roads where the surface is going to be less predictable, then I can see a very good argument for both quatro and winters.
Horses for course I guess.
Have a nice Christmas everyone, and drive those new cars carefully
Oh, and blackb9er, I hope the car gets sorted quickly.
Fascinating read.
For me, living in a town by the sea in the south, I've never ever considered spending money on a spare set of wheels and tyres to use for a few months of the year. I do accept that wide low profile summer tyres are pretty useless on snow and even more so on ice, and that on the 2 occasions in the last 10 years when I've actually had a slippery problem (without a crash), winter tyres would almost certainly have been helpful. In fact I doubt there's more than 5 mornings all winter (on average) that I even have to wait while the windscreen defrosts!
When the weather has been that bad that I'd rather not even try to drive in it, I've been able to get a train to work and simply re-arrange meetings that I was expecting to drive to.
Basically, for me, winters would be a waste of money, and that's a fact.
That of course doesn't mean that winters are waste of money for others and if I lived 'up north' where the winters are apparently harsher, and if I had to drive a lot on minor and country roads where the surface is going to be less predictable, then I can see a very good argument for both quatro and winters.
Horses for course I guess.
Have a nice Christmas everyone, and drive those new cars carefully
Oh, and blackb9er, I hope the car gets sorted quickly.
Here here
SQ5
Yep the garage sent me the repair bill couple days ago. Fortunately it's not a write off but there's a considerable amount of damage to the front and rear as expected.
Had a few issues with my insurance as they were trying to have my car sent to one of thier garages which isn't Audi approved, if id have let them do it the warranty on the car would have been void, so I had to fight with them to make sure it stayed where it was. I got there in the end but the cost estimate needs to be approved by them first before the garage can start the work and I have a feeling they're gonna take thier time with it. (For anyone who didnt know it is your legal right to have your vehicle repaired at a garage of your choosing)
The Garage have been kind enough to give me a courtesy car in the meantime so I have a silver 17 plate Merc A180d auto sat on the drive and I hate it! Looks the part but it feels cheap inside (for a 20grand car) and it's horrible to drive. The engine is a gutless & noisy 1.5, the handling is terrible, ride is lumpy, and dont even get me started with the infotainment. Whoever designed Mercs COMAND system needs to be fired, it's awful! i'd almost certainly end up in a ditch if I attempted to use that when driving. I expected a lot more from the baby Merc but I cant complain, just super happy I can still get around especially during Christmas.
So yea thats pretty much it. £700 excess to be paid when the work is complete and fingers crossed the car still feels and drives the same post restoration.
I'm Happy with the direction the thread has gone to be honest there's nothing wrong with a good old debate. I've learned a lot from everyones input. (Thanks) and im sure many more will.
I think @Gazwould & @Paul Golding make some interesting points. Price & Location are probably the biggest deciding factors. For me i live up north, I like to get around a lot during winter months and I have kids, so when the moneys there and I create the storage space I'll be investing in a set.
Anyway I'll post an update when the work is complete. In the meantime I hope everyone has a fantastic Christmas & new year. Be happy that you're fortunate enough to have such a nice vehicle and drive carefully (until summer)
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Yep the garage sent me the repair bill couple days ago. Fortunately it's not a write off but there's a considerable amount of damage to the front and rear as expected.
Had a few issues with my insurance as they were trying to have my car sent to one of thier garages which isn't Audi approved, if id have let them do it the warranty on the car would have been void, so I had to fight with them to make sure it stayed where it was. I got there in the end but the cost estimate needs to be approved by them first before the garage can start the work and I have a feeling they're gonna take thier time with it. (For anyone who didnt know it is your legal right to have your vehicle repaired at a garage of your choosing)
The Garage have been kind enough to give me a courtesy car in the meantime so I have a silver 17 plate Merc A180d auto sat on the drive and I hate it! Looks the part but it feels cheap inside (for a 20grand car) and it's horrible to drive. The engine is a gutless & noisy 1.5, the handling is terrible, ride is lumpy, and dont even get me started with the infotainment. Whoever designed Mercs COMAND system needs to be fired, it's awful! i'd almost certainly end up in a ditch if I attempted to use that when driving. I expected a lot more from the baby Merc but I cant complain, just super happy I can still get around especially during Christmas.
So yea thats pretty much it. £700 excess to be paid when the work is complete and fingers crossed the car still feels and drives the same post restoration.
I'm Happy with the direction the thread has gone to be honest there's nothing wrong with a good old debate. I've learned a lot from everyones input. (Thanks) and im sure many more will.
I think @Gazwould & @paulgolding make some interesting points. Price & Location are probably the biggest deciding factors. For me i live up north, I like to get around a lot during winter months and I have kids, so when the moneys there and I create the storage space I'll be investing in a set.
Anyway I'll post an update when the work is complete. In the meantime I hope everyone has a fantastic Christmas & new year. Be happy that you're fortunate enough to have such a nice vehicle and drive carefully (until summer)
View attachment 144400
glad to hear you’ve been able to sort it out with insurance and at a garage of your choice! I didnt know we could choose the garage so thats handy to know. And oh the a class is a terrible motor.. literally a reno 1.5dci rebadged with a mercedes logo.. horror story.
But hey hoo hopefully you’re able to get your car back quicker than expected! Good luck mate!
@Syed Shah thanks bro. Yea I'm guessing its the same 1.5 that wifey has in her qashqai but Nissan have somehow managed to make it waay more refined. Shame on you mercedes haha.
Im very sure its the same thing but not entirley sure. All i know is that its a horrible engine haha
I had the misfortune to drive one of those baby mercs a couple of weeks back, at the top of a very long list of dislikes was the spongy 'carbon fibre' dash - horrendous!
When i was car hunting last year, i was looking at an A200d whilst enquiring about an E220d.. never seen a car that so small inside.. my yaris was bigger than the a class inside! But thanks to mercs horrible customer service i didnt go for a merc at all
OUCH! But least it's being sorted.
Yeah the Merc COMAND system is shockingly bad, I had a C250 breifly, and it's just not intuitive to use, the BMW and Audi Systems are much better, although I still think the BMW iDrive one is on top.
Yeah the Merc COMAND system is shockingly bad, I had a C250 breifly, and it's just not intuitive to use, the BMW and Audi Systems are much better, although I still think the BMW iDrive one is on top.
That's a lot of money but luckily that is what insurance is forYep the garage sent me the repair bill couple days ago. Fortunately it's not a write off but there's a considerable amount of damage to the front and rear as expected.
Had a few issues with my insurance as they were trying to have my car sent to one of thier garages which isn't Audi approved, if id have let them do it the warranty on the car would have been void, so I had to fight with them to make sure it stayed where it was. I got there in the end but the cost estimate needs to be approved by them first before the garage can start the work and I have a feeling they're gonna take thier time with it. (For anyone who didnt know it is your legal right to have your vehicle repaired at a garage of your choosing)
The Garage have been kind enough to give me a courtesy car in the meantime so I have a silver 17 plate Merc A180d auto sat on the drive and I hate it! Looks the part but it feels cheap inside (for a 20grand car) and it's horrible to drive. The engine is a gutless & noisy 1.5, the handling is terrible, ride is lumpy, and dont even get me started with the infotainment. Whoever designed Mercs COMAND system needs to be fired, it's awful! i'd almost certainly end up in a ditch if I attempted to use that when driving. I expected a lot more from the baby Merc but I cant complain, just super happy I can still get around especially during Christmas.
So yea thats pretty much it. £700 excess to be paid when the work is complete and fingers crossed the car still feels and drives the same post restoration.
I'm Happy with the direction the thread has gone to be honest there's nothing wrong with a good old debate. I've learned a lot from everyones input. (Thanks) and im sure many more will.
I think @Gazwould & @Paul Golding make some interesting points. Price & Location are probably the biggest deciding factors. For me i live up north, I like to get around a lot during winter months and I have kids, so when the moneys there and I create the storage space I'll be investing in a set.
Anyway I'll post an update when the work is complete. In the meantime I hope everyone has a fantastic Christmas & new year. Be happy that you're fortunate enough to have such a nice vehicle and drive carefully (until summer)
View attachment 144400
Hopefully it all gets sorted satisfactorily and your car is back to new in a matter of weeks! Have a good Christmas (or the best you can with that Merc 
) and New Year!
Ouch, goes to show how a completly innoculous looking accident can result in a hefty repair bill, but then, as another posted, this is why we all have insurance. I just hope that when you do get the car back it looks and drives exactly the same...Yep the garage sent me the repair bill couple days ago. Fortunately it's not a write off but there's a considerable amount of damage to the front and rear as expected.
Had a few issues with my insurance as they were trying to have my car sent to one of thier garages which isn't Audi approved, if id have let them do it the warranty on the car would have been void, so I had to fight with them to make sure it stayed where it was. I got there in the end but the cost estimate needs to be approved by them first before the garage can start the work and I have a feeling they're gonna take thier time with it. (For anyone who didnt know it is your legal right to have your vehicle repaired at a garage of your choosing)
The Garage have been kind enough to give me a courtesy car in the meantime so I have a silver 17 plate Merc A180d auto sat on the drive and I hate it! Looks the part but it feels cheap inside (for a 20grand car) and it's horrible to drive. The engine is a gutless & noisy 1.5, the handling is terrible, ride is lumpy, and dont even get me started with the infotainment. Whoever designed Mercs COMAND system needs to be fired, it's awful! i'd almost certainly end up in a ditch if I attempted to use that when driving. I expected a lot more from the baby Merc but I cant complain, just super happy I can still get around especially during Christmas.
So yea thats pretty much it. £700 excess to be paid when the work is complete and fingers crossed the car still feels and drives the same post restoration.
I'm Happy with the direction the thread has gone to be honest there's nothing wrong with a good old debate. I've learned a lot from everyones input. (Thanks) and im sure many more will.
I think @Gazwould & @Paul Golding make some interesting points. Price & Location are probably the biggest deciding factors. For me i live up north, I like to get around a lot during winter months and I have kids, so when the moneys there and I create the storage space I'll be investing in a set.
Anyway I'll post an update when the work is complete. In the meantime I hope everyone has a fantastic Christmas & new year. Be happy that you're fortunate enough to have such a nice vehicle and drive carefully (until summer)
View attachment 144400
