Another losing power under boost thread

[Stuart B]

Simple Overview
Stock Map was fine
Stage 1 Map under prolonged Load in 5th or 6th (> 5 seconds for example ) significantly drops power, and doesn't seem to come back immediately.

Engine is still entirely stock (air filter, tip, intercoolers, spark plugs, exhaust)

No faults in VagCom / VCDS scan, it's not limp home mode.

Could it be the EGT protection kicking in and because it is happening where stock boost is usually dropping off I'm just feeling that? I have had a DV fault before (i my S3) but that reported an error in VCDS.

Tomorrow I will change the TIP, filter, DV and N75 and visually check for leaks.

Is there a measuring blocks guide so I can log EGTs to see if they coincide with the loss of power?

Thanks

 

[<tuffty/>]

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/

block 112 will give EGT, log 115 for boost and 31 for AFR... if EGT protection is kicking in then AFR will drop to 0.75

<tuffty/>

 

[hydro s3]

Sorry mate i don't no what would help you out.
But this section is for the A3/S3 8L models.

 

[Pasteurised]

If it does turn out to be EGT protection, look into using KFLBTS for fuelling, as well as LAMFA.
Log your engine load in those gears vs rpm, then enrich those specific cells to reduces EGTs.

 

[Stuart B]

Thanks Tuffty and Pasteurised will check it out on a logging front after checking the air filter etc - I hope the extra boost hasn't pulled the paper filter out the air box.
I suppose I might have too much fuel already I have AFR going down to 0.85 and full whack, but I was no where near that maybe 80% load.

I suppose there may be a problem with any of the following
Filter, TIP (collapsing), Actuator (staying open), DV (staying open), N75 (staying open)

it "feels" like its suddenly restricted - not misfiring just run out of air

The only type of errors I have been able to read are related to the traction control cutting in on sharp corners when the car is cold, I may only be going a few MPH like 10 only does it when cold. I have new filter and haldex oil to put in at the weekend (need to remove some extra trim) but the error's are brake light switch implausible signal and ECM Control Unit

526:9B Brake light switch Implausible signal - Intermittent
1314:B1 Engine control module (ECM) No communication - Intermittent

I have a spare brake light switch and new clutch switch to fit at the weekend and will check the earth straps on the haldex unit.

 

[<tuffty/>]

If you haven't got enough load then the throttle plate maybe closing... log the throttle plate too

<tuffty/>

 

[Stuart B]

Hmm that's interesting, as I did change the lamfa, from the stage 1 map as it was 1 across the board apart from bottom line. I will change the obvious bits and get on to it. I just don't like forcing a car into fault but it's probably the only way to determine issue.

 

[Pasteurised]

Have you got ME7Logger set up?
1 pull with that and we would have everything we need to diagnose.

 

[Stuart B]

me7logger never worked with my S3. #winner it's so easy to use as it does work on the TT.

I replaced the N75 for a spare one and put the standard BAM Map back on ( for a bae line test) - I did replace the MAF with the one from my S3 but I think it must be overreading. I cant believe a stock BAM map can get to 200g/s just with a TIP and Air filter. the boost pressure gets up to 2100 mbar to which is about 15psi? <-- although the car feels like it's dragging it's feet - what I will say is with the stock map and the N75 there are no boost problems (although I haven't red lined it as it goes flat at about 5500 on stock map)

I have this map csv (difficult to upload) - this I suppose is the money short - but remember this is supposed to be a stock BAM map

When I was driving the car with everything apart from the N75 changed (still stage 1 map) it was cutting out - not just 5th and 6th, it sort of stuttered a bit and then drove badly until back home again. I am pretty confident it was the N75, looked like a totally different part number too - but as I said all of the hoses have the crimped clamps - the DV was fine too.

I do love ME7Logger click on create config from ECU and click start logging - that's all

Incidentally, I got some cylinder ****** at the end of the Log. #knockknock?

 

[Pasteurised]

can you upload the log to http://www.filedropper.com/ or similar

 

[badger5]

column labels would be useful

 

[Stuart B]

haha - yeah I missed those on the fuller file. remembering this is a totally stock BAM map - but I am getting a MAF reading of 200g/s - this was on my S3 MAF which had a replacement sensor fitted. I may put back the TT's MAF and retry as clearly the MAF was not the cause for the stutter.
Unless you have seen 250BHP from a stock map, B5 TIP and cone filter? seems a little of a far reach to me, I know Tuffty said he had seen a 10BHP increase, I think the sensor was over-reading in my S3 too as I was getting 225g/s from stage 2 mods.

I will start to upload files to some web space I have - will try and log my - Stage "0.5" tomorrow into work - this only has a little extra to try and see if the hiccup continues after changing the N75, in addition to the stock map log I have already loaded.

Thanks for your patience

 

[Stuart B]

so log files (ignore the domain name)

http://my-worst-car.co.uk/ecuLogs/TTBAMSTOCK_24032018.csv

http://my-worst-car.co.uk/ecuLogs/TTBAMStage0_5_26032018.csv

interestingly both logs appear to get the cylinder 4 "-3 timing ******" from about 5600.

I didn't floor it in the stage0_5 log in 3rd gear, it was on the floor by the end - so I dont know if that taints the results. but once again I think the MAF reading is too high @ 205g/s = 256bhp (no way)
2200 ~ 18PSI @ 5500 looks too much too right. (I can hear a tiny high pitched whistle under boost once the cone filter has shut up - that's surely a boost leak from somewhere in the circuit.)

165*10 + 300 = 1950 ~14psi

can a faulty MAF effect other readings? I am going to have to either change the sensor in this to my original S3 sensor or put back the TT or both. I do have a "mystery button" on the dash and wondered what lies beneath, but I am pretty sure it is for the power outlet which has been fitted / moved after the double din was fitted taking away the ash tray.


Thanks guys

 

[badger5]

what size cone filter on maf?

 

[Stuart B]

Thanks for taking the time to review my logs Bill, its a fabric Cosworth S2000 filter.

I can repeat the same tests with another MAF if that has value? I have had no boosting issues since changing the N75 and the slightly "bigger" map - but if I cannot trust the it will make "playing" pretty haphazard. like playing golf with a slice and always pointing massively left because it's not corrected

I know you dont state the boost pressure, but it needs a certain amount of air - so if the AIT's are too high or some other restriction in the pipework might the turbo need to deliver more? I will say there is no play on the turbo wheel when I changed the TIP, but I dont remember the S3 Turbo intake having a groove?

 

[Stuart B]

Well I changed the MAF over and did a couple of other logs - it hasn't made so much difference apart form the boost is only 15.75psi but the MAF reading is still ~200 g/s @ ~6000 - so I suppose it's about right? the AITs are 18 degree C under boost though - which is promising

http://my-worst-car.co.uk/ecuLogs/runOne01042018.csv

http://my-worst-car.co.uk/ecuLogs/runTwo01042018.csv​

 

[Stuart B]

Is it possible that my sympathetic lamfa map has caused the increase in air, all I edited was "maximum charge pressure" to quite a low load 165 percent @5500 but I did also update the "lamfa" to being maybe 0.92 for the same, I'm wondering whether that has increased the boost to accomodate in some way? We are only talking about 2-4psi 15-20% more than expected based on charge pressure map.

 

[badger5]

Thanks for taking the time to review my logs Bill, its a fabric Cosworth S2000 filter.

View attachment 152113


I can repeat the same tests with another MAF if that has value? I have had no boosting issues since changing the N75 and the slightly "bigger" map - but if I cannot trust the it will make "playing" pretty haphazard. like playing golf with a slice and always pointing massively left because it's not corrected

I know you dont state the boost pressure, but it needs a certain amount of air - so if the AIT's are too high or some other restriction in the pipework might the turbo need to deliver more? I will say there is no play on the turbo wheel when I changed the TIP, but I dont remember the S3 Turbo intake having a groove?

the me7 is a torque demand ecu, so yes as you say cylinder fill is what drives the requested airflow(~boost) with the load limters keeping a lid on things..
What map did you adjust?
you could venture into some more full load fueling which will make it happier egt wise... A nice 0.88 for spool and enriching to 0.82 up top, and enable BTS protection to fatten it up when its being worked hard, setting the threshold accordingly.. Factory 0.95 lambda under full load is nuts, and accounts for why k04 BAM/AMK type engines crack their hotsides, manifolds and cylinder heads I think.. 920c before a fuel intervention is already way too late/hot

 

[Tj 0785]

I’d love to understand all this but it’s way over my head, maybe one day though

 

[Stuart B]

Thanks for the advice, the problem I have at the moment Bill is I haven't fitted the FMIC or downpipe yet. So am just keeping the updates minor. The map I have adjusted is the stock BAM map, when I put on my original S3 stage 1, load and timing and adjusted the lamfa was when it was dropping power under boost, what I haven't done is put that back on after changing the N75 to a known working one.
Will try and get the FMIC on this weekend. #babysteps


I will upload the current lamfa in a bit.

 

[hydro s3]

Stuart B is there a way to mointer oil pressure with that torque app pro?

 

[Stuart B]

I’d love to understand all this but it’s way over my head, maybe one day though

You can understand some of the basic settings - things like desired timing and understanding what's impacted the logs need an expert.
2 step launch control is relatively easy too.

What I find difficult is working out the mirror of each meal change. Some people get lazy and set the egt protection threshold really low and only map the secondary map, which is crazy but they at least know their settings are being used.
It's interesting comparing map settings between different maps.

 

[Stuart B]

Stuart B is there a way to mointer oil pressure with that torque app pro?

I don't think an S3 has a proper oil pressure sensor does it? But I'll check when my phone is charged up.

Edit: definitely no "oil pressure" option on my android torque pro. I might have been thinking about oil temperature didn't have a real sensor - from Ian's thread maybe?

 

[tcg]

I’d love to understand all this but it’s way over my head, maybe one day though

In layman's terms,what he's doing is similar to what my dog is at the moment...chasing his own tail!

 

[Stuart B]

That'll be worms.

 

[Stuart B]

Hi Bill,

This is my current LAMFA and Engine Load on the TT (ha spit)

Which is producing 205g/s @6400 RPM on my TT


Whereas was is my LAMFA and Load from my S3 (with same intake + 3Inch DP + 64mm standard Toyosports FMIC)

Which was producing 225g/s @ 6400 <-- pretty sure the settings are too high for a stock K04 and standard internals, but I had a faulty MAF that struggled to get over 200 g/s then replaced the MAF.

The only other non stock map changes I had on my S3 - mapping out the rear o2 sensor and the never used 2 step launch control + the timing changes which were already on the stage 1 map it came with.

There were some strange other settings in the stage 1 map which I reset back to stock things like setting the maximum load percentage to 237 instead of 222, and what appeared to be a hole in the Boost PID (I always thought those settings were for mega experts)

 

[hydro s3]

Thanks for looking Stuart.

 

[Stuart B]

okay so do some research on Menu->Settings->Add Manage Extra PIDs - but they dont have a pre-defined list for VAG - apparently it is in the Ford List.

There is "Other" maybe under there and they also have "Custom PID" - with a warning about adding one incorrectly, maybe look on Ian.Hawkins forum for Android Torque to see what the settings are?

 

[badger5]

there is no std oil pressure sensor on the engine fyi. only the pressure switch in the side of the filter housing

 

[hydro s3]

Thanks guy's