Elsa Pro Tyre Specs
- Thread starter Jo308
- Start date
I don't have access to Elsa, but I have a 67 plate and have followed advise on here from very knowledgeable people.
They come out of the factory with 255, 35, 19's on the front and 235, 35, 19's on the back.
I run 235, 35, 19's all round with no issues as do many people as I believe the original set up can cause traction control issues.
If its the brand of tyre, then I believe its a bad idea as different brands have different tyre patterns and with it having quattro you can have issues.
I'm sure someone with more knowledge will comment soon.
What exactly is in question, the type of tyre or the tread depth? I had this argument with a supplying dealer.
The spec on the tyre should be an RO2 spec Pirelli or Continental if you have staggered wheels 255/30/19 front 235/35/19 rear
Tread difference (from ErWin Wheel_Tyre_Guide) same for any quattro car
| 13.9.2 | Models with transversely installed engine |
Difference in tread depth on models with transversely installed engines, e.g. A3, TT, Q3, A1, etc.:
On these models, the average difference between the front and rear axle must not be more than 3 mm.
Front axle (average): 2.0 mm
Rear axle (average): 4.0 mm
Difference between front and rear axle: 2.0 mm
Within permissible tolerance of 3 mm
From the A3 general maintenance manual
Note
"Vehicles with four-wheel drive must be fitted with tyres with the
same tread pattern. Otherwise the centre differential may be
damaged."
Thanks for the replies. Bit of a long story, but might be at a success point now.
In October, I was looking to upgrade my PFL 65 plate RS3 to a FL - DAZA of course, must haves were matrix headlights, roof rails, in black or blue ; and NO sunroof.
I found a car which matched perfectly at a dealer in S England (can stay nameless for now). I called up and agreed to place a deposit to hold the car until I been able to drive the 150 miles to see it. This was possible a few days later. I quickly found a problem with water ingress into the boot which meant a 3 week delay whilst the techies tracked down and solved the problem. I also saw that the car had Falken 255s on the front and Goodyear Eagle 235s on the rear. I said to the rep that I thought that the same make of tyres should be fitted front and rear. He went to discuss with the sales manager and the answer was that this was not a technical requirement.
So late November I went back to see the car again to make sure that the water leak had been solved. Various rubber seals had been replaced and a long test drive in heavy rain showed no further ingress of water. So after some negotiations about a 2 year service package etc, I decided to buy the car. Returning to collect it a week later, I went through all the paperwork with the sales rep. On the 149 point pre-sale inspection check list, I spotted the wording: Quattro - all tyres must be of the same brand, type and tread pattern. So I pointed out that this was contrary to the answer I had been given previously. The rep went back to the sales manager and came back with the answer that this was only a recommendation, not mandatory. In the end I agreed to take the car, but wrote on the sale agreement that I was not satisfied with the tyres fitted and would take it up with Audi UK.
I emailed Audi UK customer service and a few days later got a phone call from a service agent. After some discussion he agreed that the word MUST could not be viewed as only a recommendation. I was then shocked when he said that Audi UK had no power to make a dealer comply with this so would have to negotiate with the manager of the dealership.
Shortly after Christmas another phone call took place. It was a stalemate according to Audi UK. I asked for a copy of the Elsa Pro specs for the RS3 but the customer agent said he didn't have access to this data!! Also transpired that he didn't drive a car either!!! I then suggested he speak to their legal dept as I was sure that a small claims court would not view the word MUST as only a recommendation. Finally, late yesterday another call from Audi UK told me that the dealer had agreed to fit new GY Eagles on the front axle - which will be done when the car goes in for a replacement rear exhaust box in February (another long saga involving a stuck exhaust flap which was supposedly fixed, but on collection fault was still present).
So before finally agreeing to the tyre swap I wanted to check what Elsa Pro specifically says about tyre circumference differences between front and rear to make sure the the 255/235 GY Eagles will be in spec.
In October, I was looking to upgrade my PFL 65 plate RS3 to a FL - DAZA of course, must haves were matrix headlights, roof rails, in black or blue ; and NO sunroof.
I found a car which matched perfectly at a dealer in S England (can stay nameless for now). I called up and agreed to place a deposit to hold the car until I been able to drive the 150 miles to see it. This was possible a few days later. I quickly found a problem with water ingress into the boot which meant a 3 week delay whilst the techies tracked down and solved the problem. I also saw that the car had Falken 255s on the front and Goodyear Eagle 235s on the rear. I said to the rep that I thought that the same make of tyres should be fitted front and rear. He went to discuss with the sales manager and the answer was that this was not a technical requirement.
So late November I went back to see the car again to make sure that the water leak had been solved. Various rubber seals had been replaced and a long test drive in heavy rain showed no further ingress of water. So after some negotiations about a 2 year service package etc, I decided to buy the car. Returning to collect it a week later, I went through all the paperwork with the sales rep. On the 149 point pre-sale inspection check list, I spotted the wording: Quattro - all tyres must be of the same brand, type and tread pattern. So I pointed out that this was contrary to the answer I had been given previously. The rep went back to the sales manager and came back with the answer that this was only a recommendation, not mandatory. In the end I agreed to take the car, but wrote on the sale agreement that I was not satisfied with the tyres fitted and would take it up with Audi UK.
I emailed Audi UK customer service and a few days later got a phone call from a service agent. After some discussion he agreed that the word MUST could not be viewed as only a recommendation. I was then shocked when he said that Audi UK had no power to make a dealer comply with this so would have to negotiate with the manager of the dealership.
Shortly after Christmas another phone call took place. It was a stalemate according to Audi UK. I asked for a copy of the Elsa Pro specs for the RS3 but the customer agent said he didn't have access to this data!! Also transpired that he didn't drive a car either!!! I then suggested he speak to their legal dept as I was sure that a small claims court would not view the word MUST as only a recommendation. Finally, late yesterday another call from Audi UK told me that the dealer had agreed to fit new GY Eagles on the front axle - which will be done when the car goes in for a replacement rear exhaust box in February (another long saga involving a stuck exhaust flap which was supposedly fixed, but on collection fault was still present).
So before finally agreeing to the tyre swap I wanted to check what Elsa Pro specifically says about tyre circumference differences between front and rear to make sure the the 255/235 GY Eagles will be in spec.
the car is a quattro simply said, because of that the car must not be level. It's the same with all the VAG 4-wd systems regardless of the brand, they all use the same setup. That all said the owners manual will tell you exactly what tires are a perfect fit to keep the speedo reading right. I suggest you look in that. It'll also have the OEM tire brand size width etc noted in it.
Thanks Northpole. I've looked in the online manual which is linked from the My Audi app but it has no information about recommended tyre makes beyond the general stuff on tyres and rims
Thanks North pole. I've looked in the online manual which is linked from the My Audi app but is has no information about recommended tyre makes beyond the general stuff on tyres and rims
There wasn't one....
Audi usually spec a R01 / R02 / A0 tyre.
I’ve ran several non OEM spec tyres on several RS3’s and never had an issue or had it mentioned on a dealer visit.
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You are the judge of that in the end but you should not run rake or reverse rake if you have a quattro. The only model that doesn't care about that to my knowledge is the Q7 as it runs a torsen (continuous) 4wd system instead of the audi quattro system.
But yeah when buying a quattro all 4 tires should be the same brand, size, width and height.
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RS3 runs staggered set up so that’s not strictly true.
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Mweh they do it for the looks, it doesn't mean the car isn't level... put it on a level floor than put that same level ontop of the roof right in the middle of the car... it'll be level or just within spec. It's once it has more than 15% rake or reverse rake when the quattro system starts acting up. which you won't notice in the beginning but after a few years... excessive ware on the parts of the quattro system (i've seen this first hand on a few older mk2 TT's)
lol I’ve never said anything about the rake / reverse rake.
Plenty of RS3 owners have moved away from OEM spec branded tyres with zero issues.
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Torsen drives are just as padantic as Haldex but slightly more robust. All 4wd Audi are Torsen except the MQB-type and later R8 All are called 'quattro' You are correct that they 'should' all be the same. If you want to know what staggered wheels do to your haldex, check the colour of your haldex oil.
However (as @8YARWY above), The RS3 runs a reverse stagger and normal front 255/30 tyres will give too large a rolling radius hence the Audi RO2 tyre for the RS3.
I have had the RO2 and non-RO2 Pirelli next to each other and the difference in width and rolling radius is significant.
They won't be. your car should have RO2, end of discussion.
To run staggered setup on an RS3 your car must have RO2 tyres. The only makes I know are Pirelli and Continental, the Pirelli are useless, neither are great. I argued (and won) to get the correct RO2 tyres on my RS3 and then promptly sold them.
I changed 2 sets of staggered wheels into 2 sets of square and now run square 8.5" PS4S summer and square 8" Bridgestone in the winter and the car is happy.
IMHO the FL saloon does not need staggered wheels
Actually there are no road cars that need staggered wheels, a square set of tires always wins both in handling, economy and drivability. But looks wise, yeah rake is nice reverse rake isn't. I'd rather have that sorted with the suspension but hey it can be done with running different size tires or wheels... That all said, wider rear tires on a RWD car makes sense, not on a 4wd car. Honestly if i was to buy an rs3 from a dealer (car dealer court) they'd better put the right tires on it, and if they refuse that'll be me wanting my money back.
The wider staggered wheels on the RS3 are on the FRONT. They are the same diameter and only 1/2" wider. I defy you to tell which car has them. There is no 'rake' at all.
And they WERE needed on early iron block cars with the weight hanging well over the front end to cut down the understeer. Watching RS3 understeer their way off the road round the Nürburgring tells you everything. Weight over the front axle is not something easily tuned out with suspension.
IMHO the alloy block cars, particularly the saloon do not need them, especially as you never go over 8/10 on the road and I never take it on track let alone the Nurburgring.
Mine runs square setup, no handling or traction issues and I can rotate wheels each year as I need.
If I had an early Iron block I may run the staggered setup
Pirelli 255 vs Goodyear SS 235 on my old FL RS3
Michelin Pilot SS 235 vs Pirelli (R01) 255
A friends FL comparing 255’s Pirelli vs 255 Michelin MP4S
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Michelin Pilot SS 235 vs Pirelli (R01) 255
A friends FL comparing 255’s Pirelli vs 255 Michelin MP4S
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Rake is when the front is lower than the back, reverse rake is when the front is higher than the back this is best solved with suspension tweaks. back to what you are actually talking about:
It's called staggered tires and the reason for it is tracking. Wider tires on the front than rear makes it reverse staggered . That is another story and only needed if the engines are heavy and cause understeer (something the old golf mk3 vr6 used to do, always solved by running 225 45 17 tires on those vw golf vr6's) Once you've put on wider tires in the front, the rears will follow without causing understeer. But even if you'd run the same width on the rear it'll be fine (the problem is caused by the weight of the engine and the front tires loosing grip) IMHO there is no need for the rs3 to have staggered tires... as long as the fronts are the right size to battle the understeer the rears can be the exact same size.
audi probably did it to keep the prices lower as the rears have a more common size tire so they are cheaper compared to the fronts.
It's called staggered tires and the reason for it is tracking. Wider tires on the front than rear makes it reverse staggered . That is another story and only needed if the engines are heavy and cause understeer (something the old golf mk3 vr6 used to do, always solved by running 225 45 17 tires on those vw golf vr6's) Once you've put on wider tires in the front, the rears will follow without causing understeer. But even if you'd run the same width on the rear it'll be fine (the problem is caused by the weight of the engine and the front tires loosing grip) IMHO there is no need for the rs3 to have staggered tires... as long as the fronts are the right size to battle the understeer the rears can be the exact same size.
audi probably did it to keep the prices lower as the rears have a more common size tire so they are cheaper compared to the fronts.
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I know what rake and stagger is thanks
What I am saying is you cannot see either on two RS3s even if they are side by side as it is only a matter of a few mm either way. Most of the 1/2" extra width on the front is on the back side of the wheel anyway . Not done for looks, you can't see it.I don't disagree, they could indeed be the same size. I run two sets of square and it works just fine, Square tyres are what the haldex should have, Staggereds were a band-aid on an old design for 9/10 round the Nürburgring for which the iron block RS3 needed bigger front tyres for understeer.
However they could not fit bigger rears due to the body design on the SB. I get away with it on the saloon but I only run 245 as they are PS4S and they are a wide tyre, about as wide as 255 in most other makes.
Anything more on the rear and it may rub, certainly would not pass type approval for a new car. That is why they came with 235 on the rear They have to add a plastic arch extension to the rear quarter for the 235 as it is.
I have a good shot of the difference in rolling radius between the RO2 and non RO2 Pirelli I will try and dig out, difference was about 10mm IIRC .
Because they put it on one side no surprise it caused me problems, 10mm difference across the axle
255 PS4S was worse which is why I went 245 all round, happy haldex now, especially with fresh oil
I know what rake and stagger is thanks
I don't disagree, they could indeed be the same size. I run two sets of square and it works just fine, Square tyres are what the haldex should have, Staggereds were a band-aid on an old design for 9/10 round the Nürburgring for which the iron block RS3 needed bigger front tyres for understeer.
However they could not fit bigger rears due to the body design on the SB. I get away with it on the saloon but I only run 245 as they are PS4S and they are a wide tyre, about as wide as 255 in most other makes.
Anything more on the rear and it may rub, certainly would not pass type approval for a new car. That is why they came with 235 on the rear They have to add a plastic arch extension to the rear quarter for the 235 as it is.
I have a good shot of the difference in rolling radius between the RO2 and non RO2 Pirelli I will try and dig out, difference was about 10mm IIRC .
Because they put it on one side no surprise it caused me problems, 10mm difference across the axle
255 PS4S was worse which is why I went 245 all round, happy haldex now, especially with fresh oil
I ran 235 all round on the FL for 3 years.
Never an issue either and the same for the winter set up too.
Interestingly on the 8Y our German friends are running a 235 square set up for winters on silver wheels of 8 x 19” x 25ET fronts and 8 x 19” x 46ET rear
I’m tempted to buy a set then I can run 245 all round on the 8Y.
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One of the reasons I went 245 all round was I could go 35 profile and it gave me the deepest sidewall compared to 235/35 or 255/30. It has taken the hard edge off the car on a long run (along with them being Michelin) and I can actually use dynamic occasionally and keep teeth in. Easier to get and cheaper than 255/30 last few years
245/35 all round was a TTRS size so I could not see any issue. Works well. Currently on the 235/35 all round winters, third season even wear and no problem with balance in all conditions
For what it's worth, I've recently fitted 4 new pirelli pzeros pz4 235 35 zr19 91y xl a0-sc tl.
65reg pfl rs3. Went on to pirelli's site to get correct spec then bought from camskils.
Square 8j set up
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65reg pfl rs3. Went on to pirelli's site to get correct spec then bought from camskils.
Square 8j set up
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