R32 Arb's!!!!!!!!!!

[fingermouse]

Sorta...

So, std balance will remain but will be stiffer overall is what you are saying?

yes thats it, its probally less understear than std ARB`s. tbh

 

[Ess_Three]

Ess....

Thanks.

Can i do this bit by bit (i'm no millionaire!),

I don't suppose many on here are...if we were we'd be on the Pagani forum!

as in get the springs then shocks a few months later then ARB's after that?

Yes.
Springs, dampers AND adjustable tie bars though...you really do need the tie bars to get the chassis set up properly and to stop rear tyre wear.

You can do it in bits...but if you go do the ARBs later, you have to undoe subframes and you'll muck up the alignment you have already paid for...so you end up paying twice.

I think the biggest problem is around "Wales" there are very few companies who know what they are talking about in terms of Setting up Geometry on cars. Audi want £120 for a 4 wheel laser alignment. They'd know nothing about toe in and camber adjustments so it's pointless me taking it there.

Thing is...Audi have the gear and the boys know their stuff...and they can do it.
Their settings are standard though.
I've had mine done at Audi several times and they can do anything you ask them to do...if you have a word with the lad and give him the settings, I'm sure they will set it to anything you want - as long as it's physically achievable.

They even made me take my last set of H&R spring off as it altered the rear camber that much they said you will invalidate your new car warranty if you keep them on LOL, many years ago but nothing will have changed.

Typical...

Where does one go to get such an informed calculation of setup done on their car? I've no idea where to even begin.?? Don't really want to drive 400 miles or so to get mine done thats for sure, even though i'm 100% sure it's gonna be worth it.

You need to fine someone that's been there and done it...someone who has played with variations in front and rear camber, front and rear toe, tyre pressures etc...and understands how they work and interact.
I could give you some settings...but then again, do I know anything about it?

I didn't know tyre pressure made that much of a difference, shows how un-informed i am.

Sure does...I adjust my tyre pressures front to rear drpendant on road or track, wet or dry! They make a huge difference...especially in 'feel' and 'confidence'.

What size whaals do you run?

 

[Ess_Three]

Lets say, for 17" or 18" wheels...
Bilstein B8s with H&R springs and adjustable rear tie bars...

You asked for:
As close to -1.5 degrees negative camber per side as you can get by sliding the bottom balljoints outwards as far as they go, and making sure they were equal (around -1 to -1.1 at a guess) making sure you pull the front subframe as far forward as you can to give as much caster as possible.
Parallel front toe.
-0.5 degrees begative camber per side at the rear.
Parallel toe.
Set the Front tyre pressures to Std or 1-2 PSI less...
Set the rears to the setting for 4 people.

You'd be impressed.

If you run sticky tyres, drive hard, and don't mind scrubbing the tryes a bit (inside and outside) and are looking for ultimate grip and to give the steering wheel some weight and feel, then:

As close to -1.5 degrees negative camber per side as you can get by sliding the bottom balljoints outwards as far as they go after slotting the bottom arms slightly with a round file, then making sure they were equal (around -1.5 to -1.55) making sure you pull the front subframe as far forward as you can to give as much caster as possible.
Front toe set to 2 minutes toe out per side. (Total of 4)
-0.5 degrees begative camber per side at the rear.
Parallel toe.
Set the Front tyre pressures to Std or 1-2 PSI less...
Set the rears to the setting for 4 people.

Preferably with uprated (Neuspeed) ARBs and 18" wheels...

You'd find it incredible. Enough to outhandle STI/Evos/M3s on the road or track - if you can drive it well enough, which you will, as it'll be so predictable and competent.

 

[Mr.G]

Ess...

You need to fine someone that's been there and done it...someone who has played with variations in front and rear camber, front and rear toe, tyre pressures etc...and understands how they work and interact.
I could give you some settings...but then again, do I know anything about it?

If i thought that i'd not be asking mate, believe me you know your stuff! This thread and your advice make me very interested in getting all this done as a car is only as fast as it can corner. No point in having 1000Hp in something which handles like a barge!!! I think thats directed at someone else, however indirectly ;P

I trust your judgement and therefore i'm asking you about what to do first, or should i save for the lot and do it in one go, i think that might be a better option as it sound like your saying that anyway!

If you were to give me your settings for say fast road, then that would be a great help. If Audi can do it all for me once the parts are fitted, not by Audi though as labour prices would see it in the thousands lol, then that would be great!

Again...thanks!

G

 

[Mr.G]

Oh and i run a completely 100% standard S3. To include the wheels and OEM tyres.

G

 

[1animal1]

Dave's gonna wana chop you up after that last comment Glen.....

 

[<tuffty/>]

You'd find it incredible. Enough to outhandle STI/Evos/M3s on the road or track

I like the sound of that

 

[Ess_Three]

Dave's gonna wana chop you up after that last comment Glen.....

I can only go by what I've seen, as I watched someone else (DavidR) drive round Knockhill on a very wet day once he'd paid for it.

That day he was keeping up with 350 BHP STIs on the straight, and quicker on the corners, lapping as quick as many Evos, he passed an E46 M3, and a 996 C4S...also outbraking many cars too as it was so stable under braking.

I have no desire to blow anyones trumpet over it...I wasn't driving, I knew the car at least as well - if not better - and once I'd suggested how he should drive it (get it to power oversteer and not understeer - David is too smooth and measured with his inputs...I'm a bit of a thug and throw it about...which is what it was set up for) he was off...

I saw a 62 second lap in torrential rain, from the passenger seat.
That's quick, I can assure you. There wasn't an M3 close that day.
Lets not forget, it was an S3 on fairly basic, but well chosen suspension - no coilovers, not corner weighted, standard bushes etc...

I'm not suggesting it was better than an M3 as in the driving experience, it wasn't...but you pick your battles carefully and go giant slaying!

Like I say...I didn't own it, nor was I driving...merely passing comment on what I saw.

In fact, since I had my C4S parked in the car park, I was pretty distressed at how easily he drove round the outside of the C4S.

 

[jcb]

Lets say, for 17" or 18" wheels...
Bilstein B8s with H&R springs and adjustable rear tie bars...

You asked for:
As close to -1.5 degrees negative camber per side
Parallel front toe.
-0.5 degrees begative camber per side at the rear.
Parallel toe.
Set the Front tyre pressures to Std or 1-2 PSI less...
Set the rears to the setting for 4 people.

You'd be impressed.

Ess, don't want to hijack they thread but I have been considering ARB's for a while and you seem to talk a lot of sense.

its on an [cough] A41.8tqs [cough] but still relevant.
based on what your scenario above I have:
geometry:
-1deg front
-1/2 deg rear
parrallel toe
3 1/2 deg caster front (RS4 hub carriers have a higher built in caster, limited adjustment)
tyres:
GY GSD3 245/40/18 (bad choice of size I know, but i am aware of it!)
31psi front
34psi rear
shocks:
KW V3's set about 30mm lower than stock
full soft compression front
1/4 turn off full soft compression rear
3/4 turn off high rebound front
1/4 turn off high rebound rear
Polybushed throughout.
Ride and handling is good, especially at speed, awesome damping of anything you want to throw at the V3's over 40mph, firm in loading up into corners, neutral to slight oversteer when pushed. good turn in, excellent braking (8 pots with yellow pads)

My questions is this:
when braking (light or hard) and going over big changes in road surface, things like severe crests or even at lowspeeds, speed bumps for example, I am losing enough grip for the ABS to kick in momentarily which obviously affects the handling.
It is not a perfect set up by any stretch of the imagination and I suspect that the spring rate may be too high (very limited choice of axle weights when buying V3's for the B5 chassis), I am looking into potentially changing them to a lower rate, they are cheap as it is.
and there is a wider choice as an after sale.

But from what you said, if I was to uprate the ARBs front and back keeping the same stock ratio of diameters (larger rear, smaller front) do you think I could get rid of that ABS characteristic?


would like to sort this as I have DTS and rear sub frame mounts to fit when my new engine is ready in late Spring and would prefer it all to go in at once.
I am planning a trip to the 'Ring in late summer and there are lots of areas there where undulations in and before the braking points would undoubtedly unsettle my car as it stands.
And clearly that is not the place to tune brakes and suspension!!

 

[Ess_Three]

shocks:
KW V3's set about 30mm lower than stock
full soft compression front
1/4 turn off full soft compression rear
3/4 turn off high rebound front
1/4 turn off high rebound rear
Polybushed throughout.
Ride and handling is good, especially at speed, awesome damping of anything you want to throw at the V3's over 40mph, firm in loading up into corners, neutral to slight oversteer when pushed. good turn in, excellent braking (8 pots with yellow pads)

My questions is this:
when braking (light or hard) and going over big changes in road surface, things like severe crests or even at lowspeeds, speed bumps for example, I am losing enough grip for the ABS to kick in momentarily which obviously affects the handling.

But from what you said, if I was to uprate the ARBs front and back keeping the same stock ratio of diameters (larger rear, smaller front) do you think I could get rid of that ABS characteristic?

Personally I would not expect the ARBs to have any bearing on the problems you describe.
They will alter how the car feels, on tun in and when loaded...but for straight line bumps upsetting your braking, ABSs are unlikely to help.

Have you tried playing with rebound damping?

How much adjustment do you have on V3s?

If your spring rates are too hard at the front you can get skipping...or if the spring rate is OK, the compression dapming perhaps a little soft letting the damper go 'in' but the rebound too hard to let it keep the tyre in contact with the road?
Have you tried softening the front rebound?

That is assuming when you mean 'high' on rebound, you mean as hard as it'll go?

I'd suggest upping the front compression damping slightly, upping the rear by the same amount, and softening the front rebound setting a bit...and try that.

What size wheels are you running?
Are they big and heavy?
That could have an impact too.

It's hard to say...especially without driving.

But, your settings for bump/rebound seem odd to me...but I'm not familiar with V3s adjustment ranges, so it's difficult to say.

 

[jcb]

range is 8 1/4 clicks (2 full turns) on both comp and reb.
fully open is soft compression and slow/soft rebound

recommended out the box settings are:
front reb 1 turn open (so half open)
front comp 0.75 turns open (so slightly harder than half)
rear rebound 2 turns open (full open)
rear comp 1 turn open (halfway)

this gives softer compression at the rear and significantly softer rebound.
understeers like a b1tch like this. hence these are the factory settings!

stiffer rear helps neutral handling but the compression settings are about as hard as I would be happy going without shaking my teeth out under 40mph!

wheels are B7 RS4 8.5x18 Et24, heavy but no more than the 8x18 ET43 RS6's I had previously. its not the wheels.....its the 360mm discs and 8pot calipers that weigh waaaaay more than the wheel by itself!
problem was there on stock brakes though so that is not the source

have played around with comp and rebound settings, not much affected the ABS on speed bump problem.
will have to reset them and start from the beginning, see if your suggestion on rebound settings works and then may swap the springs out for lower rate

think I may have been on the right track with the spring rates then?


thanks for your help

 

[Ess_Three]

may swap the springs out for lower rate

think I may have been on the right track with the spring rates then?

I'd be very surprised if KW sent a kit out with the front springs too hard for generic use.
See how you get on with playing with the settings.

 

[fran-s3]

So it the general opiniion not to use R32 arbs with a standard S3 on standard springs/shocks?

 

[jcb]

I'd be very surprised if KW sent a kit out with the front springs too hard for generic use.
See how you get on with playing with the settings.

the options for axle weight choice do not match with all the engines for the B5.
around 200kg difference in the listings
I had no choice but to take the RS4 set.

they are not pricey to replace and mine look a bit shagged anyway as the powder coating has come off.
going to play with settings first anyway

cheers