A couple of things about 1.8t engine building

Djordje1

New Member
Hey everyone

I'm working on a project car on the same platform as A3. 1.8t (new beetle 2000 AWV 150hp) and I'm building a new engine, completely
with new turbo g25-550.

I have a couple of things I'm concerned about and I would like to know your opinion. My goal is 450hp and these parts are related to durability and capabilities...

-Do I need a bigger MAF sensor? Which one do I need?

-Do I need a different Throttle Body? Which one do I need?I have this intake manifold https://fmic.eu/en/engine/168099-intake-manifold-fmic-pro-audi-vw-18t.html

-Do I need a custom camshaft bearing cap or I can use the OEM one? Which one do I need?

-Stock 2.0 TFSI main bolts or ARP?
Do I really need ARP bolts/studs or I can go with Elring main bolts for TFSI 2.0 as @desertstorm mentioned in one of the posts?"IStock 2.0 TFSI main bolts , these are upgraded over the stock 1.8T items and a lot cheaper than ARP . Stock Elring head bolts and Elring head gasket set."

-Head Bolts? Do I need ARP studs, bolts or there is also some cheaper and reliable replacements?

-Do I need new OEM (MAHLE) valve guides or I can use the old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need a new OEM rocket arm or I can use old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need a new OEM (AJUSA) valve stem seal or I can use an old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need new OEM (AJUSA) valve lifters or I can use the old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need? (I'm changing camshaft, taking a new one...)
-Do I need a new OEM (MAHLE) inlet valve or I can use the old-current one, but just to polish them? If not OEM which one do I need?

-Which brand are you recommending for the gasket...? How does this one look like? https://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/1-8t-race-zylinderkopfdichtung-bar-tek?number=2118t88.5

Also, my plan is to reduce the temperature in the engine bay if possible.

-Where I can find a reliable embossed aluminum heat shield?
-Where I can find a reliable turbo blanket?
-Where I can find a reliable heat shielding sleeve?
-Where I can find a reliable Exhaust Heat Wrap?

There is a lot of questions I and will really appreciate if you have time to help me with any of these.
Thank you so much,
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Hey everyone

I'm working on a project car on the same platform as A3. 1.8t (new beetle 2000 AWV 150hp) and I'm building a new engine, completely
with new turbo g25-550.

I have a couple of things I'm concerned about and I would like to know your opinion. My goal is 450hp and these parts are related to durability and capabilities...

-Do I need a bigger MAF sensor? Which one do I need?
Assuming you have a K03 based MAF already you would need at the very least the S3 MAF tube... the MAF sensor for a wideband K03/K04 turbo'd engine is the same, its the tube thats different...

Personally given your power goals you should bin the MAF and use a standalone like Ignitron and tune for speed density... a MAF at this power level and turbo is not the best thing in the world to tune and tends to lead to issues with low load/cruise situations...

-Do I need a different Throttle Body? Which one do I need?I have this intake manifold https://fmic.eu/en/engine/168099-intake-manifold-fmic-pro-audi-vw-18t.html

You don't "need" a larger throttle body... the std 1.8t is perfectly capable... I couldn't tell you what is needed for that manifold specifically... not one I have used or seen before and nothing obvious in the description

-Do I need a custom camshaft bearing cap or I can use the OEM one? Which one do I need?

Keep OEM, make sure they are the ones that came with the head and make sure you refit them back in the correct order as they are line bored for the head specifically

-Stock 2.0 TFSI main bolts or ARP?
Do I really need ARP bolts/studs or I can go with Elring main bolts for TFSI 2.0 as @desertstorm mentioned in one of the posts?"IStock 2.0 TFSI main bolts , these are upgraded over the stock 1.8T items and a lot cheaper than ARP . Stock Elring head bolts and Elring head gasket set."

TFSI mains are 12.9 and I know Bill uses them on some builds (K04 hybrids etc) but on big power builds with larger frame turbos its ARP all day long...

-Head Bolts? Do I need ARP studs, bolts or there is also some cheaper and reliable replacements?

ARP studs

-Do I need new OEM (MAHLE) valve guides or I can use the old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need a new OEM rocket arm or I can use old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need a new OEM (AJUSA) valve stem seal or I can use an old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need new OEM (AJUSA) valve lifters or I can use the old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need? (I'm changing camshaft, taking a new one...)
-Do I need a new OEM (MAHLE) inlet valve or I can use the old-current one, but just to polish them? If not OEM which one do I need?
Only ever used off the shelf guides... nothing specific... guide wear on a std 20v starts being noticeable on the exhausts from 50k miles on and there is no 'performance' guide that makes a difference... just use what ever you feel happy with

Rocket arm??

I have used Elring stem seals on pretty much every head I have ever built (a fair few) including my own on engines of 600hp +

OE followers are made by INA iirc... I have used parts supplied by our local motor factor, OE and sourced from eBay... they are all much the same as long as you buy from a trusted brand

OE inlets are generally fine... its the exhausts that need attention... bare minimum for a cammed high power spec is inconel exhausts, cat cam gold springs... you will need to use the triple groove exhausts when using the OE retainers

-Which brand are you recommending for the gasket...? How does this one look like? https://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/1-8t-race-zylinderkopfdichtung-bar-tek?number=2118t88.5

Depending on the piston size you plan then you only need to use an OE or Elring headgasket... these are suitable for bores up to 82.5mm... if you go 83mm then I have used IE modded gaskets which are just Elring ones honed out...

For a little extra peace of mind use some like Wellseal on the sealing faces

Also, my plan is to reduce the temperature in the engine bay if possible.

-Where I can find a reliable embossed aluminum heat shield?
-Where I can find a reliable turbo blanket?
-Where I can find a reliable heat shielding sleeve?
-Where I can find a reliable Exhaust Heat Wrap?

There is a lot of questions I and will really appreciate if you have time to help me with any of these.
Thank you so much,

Any single or double layer alloy heat shield is generally fine

Turbo blankets tend to a bit hit and miss... not a massive fan of them personally and have seen cheaper ones catch fire

Plenty of heat shield sleeving on ebay... just don't buy too cheap

I normally use 'titanium' heat wrap... last lot I bought was less than 20 quid for 15mtrs and lasted the good 5 or 6 years the engine was in the car (longer than the IE 700hp rods at least... and no... I am not still bitter about it LOL)

<tuffty/>
 

Rainbird

Registered User
My thoughts - may differ from those more in the know than me but for what it's worth:

-Do I need a bigger MAF sensor? Which one do I need?
If you plan to keep the stock ECU, then it's worth going bigger. The nicer solution would be to drop in an Ignitron ECU and go MAFless.
-Do I need a different Throttle Body? Which one do I need?I have this intake manifold https://fmic.eu/en/engine/168099-intake-manifold-fmic-pro-audi-vw-18t.html
Don't NEED, and can always be upgraded later

-Do I need a custom camshaft bearing cap or I can use the OEM one? Which one do I need?
Nope

-Stock 2.0 TFSI main bolts or ARP?
Do I really need ARP bolts/studs or I can go with Elring main bolts for TFSI 2.0 as @desertstorm mentioned in one of the posts?"IStock 2.0 TFSI main bolts , these are upgraded over the stock 1.8T items and a lot cheaper than ARP . Stock Elring head bolts and Elring head gasket set."
I've not looked into the TFSI bolts. Personally I'd drop ARP in for the cost, have seen OEM bolts snap with higher power.
-Head Bolts? Do I need ARP studs, bolts or there is also some cheaper and reliable replacements?
Don't NEED, but not a bad thing to have if you plan to have the head off again in the future. Can always be added later. Caveat being if you plan to run high boost then maybe more worthwhile, but given your goal should be fine.
-Do I need new OEM (MAHLE) valve guides or I can use the old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need a new OEM rocket arm or I can use old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need a new OEM (AJUSA) valve stem seal or I can use an old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need?
-Do I need new OEM (AJUSA) valve lifters or I can use the old-current one? If not OEM which one do I need? (I'm changing camshaft, taking a new one...)
-Do I need a new OEM (MAHLE) inlet valve or I can use the old-current one, but just to polish them? If not OEM which one do I need?
Replace exhausts at least, they're typically worn.
There aren't any rocker arms in the 1.8t.
Replace stem seals
If your lifters look worn or seized then replace those.
Inlet valves may be ok, though often replaced for peace of mind. Exhaust valves will need changing.
-Which brand are you recommending for the gasket...? How does this one look like? https://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/1-8t-race-zylinderkopfdichtung-bar-tek?number=2118t88.5
OEM/Elring is fine.
-Where I can find a reliable embossed aluminum heat shield?
-Where I can find a reliable turbo blanket?
-Where I can find a reliable heat shielding sleeve?
-Where I can find a reliable Exhaust Heat Wrap?
Heat is the killer, well worth adding protection :)
The likes of Nimbus sheet can be useful for the firewall and some components, the rest is no bad thing typically either. I've seen mixed reviews about turbo blankets but they do seem to be popping up more often.

The likes of Demon Tweeks and Funk Motorsport are worth a look, though there are plenty of other sellers offering the same/similar stuff so shop around a bit.

Edit: Tuffty replied while I was typing - take his advice over mine :laugh:
 
Last edited:

Djordje1

New Member
Oh, thank you @<tuffty/> and @Rainbird for the quick reply. I very appreciate your opinion!

I'm sorry @Rainbird,but your comment is the last one :D However, you have pretty much the same thought.
I thought I need a new custom camshaft bearing cap because I'm changing camshaft and wanted to avoid micro-vibration, but I'll make sure they are in correct order.

Yes, I'm planning to use standalone ECU.
This is actually a rough list of the parts I'm planning to use in my build

Ultimate Road Spec Camshaft AUD20TBP285B
INTAKE MANIFOLD FMIC PRO AUDI VW 1.8T
VAG X-Beam Con-Rods 144 x 20 mm BAR-TEK®
ACL Motorsport Con-Rod Bearings
1.8T High-Performance Pistons-Kit WISECO" 82mm 8.5:1
1.8t Supertech Inconel Exhaust Valves
SUPERTECH VALVE SPRING SET
Nortech Performance Stainless Steel Tubular Exhaust Manifold V-BAND
Nortech Performance Downpipe
Turbosmart HyperGate 45m GenV black Wastegate
ARP CYLINDER HEAD BOLT KIT 204-3901
Luk dual-mass flywheel
Genuine Coilpack Adapters, 1.8t 20v, TFSI coilpacks (x 4)
Luk BR 0222
Sachs 4 Puk Clutch
Sachs Release Bearing
1000cc Bosch
Audi R8 Genuine Red Top Coilpacks NGK
Bosch 4-Bar Fuel Pressure Regulator
Garrett g25-550
ECU master black
Bosch waterPump
1.8T 20V VW & Audi Upgrade Fuel Pump 600 HP BAR-TEK
30 AMP Fuel Pump Wiring Kit
Gates Racing timing belt
Mechanical belt tensioner (kit)
High torque crank pulley (kit)
2.0 TFSI EA113 Diamond crank pulley washer
Bolt for crank sprocket ARP
Bolt for cam gear ARP

btw do I need catchcan oil?
What would be the maximum RPM I can use with this engine?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
8.5:1 is quite low a CR... 9:1 or 9.25:1 would have been better...

82mm bore means you can use the standard headgasket so OE or Elring

Seeing as you have gone supertech for the exhaust and springs you may as well go for a full supertech setup and use the nitrited inlets... you will need the titanium retainers anyway for the exhaust double springs and I would suggest you go for the single groove over the triples

Use a 3bar FPR not 4bar

Catch can is a useful thing to have purely as it means you can clean up the PCV system

By 'high torque crank pulley kit' I assume you mean a billet crank wheel (belt not damper)... billet is fine

Personally would not rely on just an intank fuel pump... I run a Dw65 and 044 on mine

<tuffty/>
 

Djordje1

New Member
HEy @<tuffty/>



8.5:1 is quite low a CR... 9:1 or 9.25:1 would have been better...
I already bought 8.5:1 pistons, but I really hope I will compensate for that with a new camshaft I hope so...Intake valves will stay more opened...But maybe is not enough to fill that gap between 8.5:1 and 9.5:1
1626784251068.png


82mm bore means you can use the standard headgasket so OE or Elring
Thanks :)

Seeing as you have gone supertech for the exhaust and springs you may as well go for a full supertech setup and use the nitrited inlets... you will need the titanium retainers anyway for the exhaust double springs and I would suggest you go for the single groove over the triples

Maybe I can go with a full KIT single groove also I have an option for +1mm size? Is it better to keep stock size?


Use a 3bar FPR not 4bar
Ok, that's means I have to use OE one 3bar???I remember I read somewhere on the forum that is 4bar recommended


The catch can is a useful thing to have purely as it means you can clean up the PCV system
My mechanic says if the engine is good you don't need oil catch can, but maybe I can install it just in case...

By 'high torque crank pulley kit' I assume you mean a billet crank wheel (belt not damper)... billet is fine

Yes exactly...

1626784904379.png



Personally would not rely on just an intank fuel pump... I run a Dw65 and 044 on mine
I think I'll follow your steps with an additional 044Bosch, btw are you using DW65 or DW65V, DW65C? Is it reliable? Also, know that AEM has a good fuel pump.
Did you upgrade the wiring and fusion for the fuel pump?

Cheers,
Thank you sooooo much,
Djordje
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Firstly... I would suggest you have a read of my build thread.. its lengthy but has all this detail in... and lots of pictures :)

As you are only using a G25-550 I can't see why you would max out 1000cc injectors... I would start off with a 3bar FPR as this will give you better low pulsewidth performance on the injectors

Stick to std size vales... +1mm won't give you anything

Don't recall exactly what model DW65 I have but as I have an S3 its a quattro version... you would need the FWD version... as for reliability... this seems a grey area... generally they have been good... mines been fine over the couple or so years its been in... that said I know Bill has had a few failures over the years so anyones guess...

TBH if I was doing it again (which may happen) I would just fit an OE intank as all its really doing is acting as a lift pump for the 044...

<tuffty/>
 

Djordje1

New Member
@<tuffty/>
I'll definitely check, but I think I already read about your project. I'll check once again closely

Ok then I'll buy Supertech kit with stock size valves
1000cc I chose because most the people recommend even @desertstorm are using in his TT500hp build. What you're suggesting for g25-550? I'll go with 3bar then.
I have to check is there any difference between the new beetle fuel pump and S3, but I'll think about that to keep the OE pump and just add additional bosch 044 to push the fuel true the system.I understand what your talking about...Make sense
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Well... to add a little context then... I ran 1000cc injectors on a 2ltr stroker with a GT3582r producing 620hp at around 7.7k rpm... I had a 4bar fpr which gave me 80/90% IDC at 0.82-0.85 lambda on boost

1000cc at 3bar should be enough for 'pump' fuel on a G25-550 tbh but obviously if you the extra overhead then by all means fit a 4bar but it can affect fuelling at idle and cruise due to lack of linearity... a decent ECU will cope if its got a good wideband controller on it

<tuffty/>
 

Djordje1

New Member
Well... to add a little context then... I ran 1000cc injectors on a 2ltr stroker with a GT3582r producing 620hp at around 7.7k rpm... I had a 4bar fpr which gave me 80/90% IDC at 0.82-0.85 lambda on boost

1000cc at 3bar should be enough for 'pump' fuel on a G25-550 tbh but obviously if you the extra overhead then by all means fit a 4bar but it can affect fuelling at idle and cruise due to lack of linearity... a decent ECU will cope if its got a good wideband controller on it

<tuffty/>
@<tuffty/>
hey man!

Thank you so much for the info,I definitely don't want to do stuff just without purpose...I'll go with 3bar and 1000cc. Also, I'll go with dw65 and 044.

Did I want to ask about boost control and solenoids? How you're controlling your boost? Do you prefer a 2 port or 3 port solenoid? I have Turbosmart HyperGate 45m GenV black Wastegate and would be great to use full possibilities. There is also a lot of brands for solenoids? Which one is recommended?

Do I need any blow-off valve? Which one is the best? How strong spring do I need?

Thank you so much,
Djordje
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
If you haven't bought an ECU yet then buy an Ignitron... if you have already bought an ECU then sell it and buy an Ignitron...

Now that we have cleared that up... :)

.... I used the standard N75 on my 20v... I plan to use the N75 when I turbo the VR too... thats said... I know that Mac Valves work well as an alternative but I had no boost control issues with the OE valve so never felt compelled to change it...

Boost control is done through the Ignitron ECU... its proper PID closed loop control, multiple maps, WMI compensation and flex fuel capable... I have a load of examples of this in my build thread from when I was tuning Ignitron on my car..

as for a 'blow off' valve... they are essentially a 'safety' item designed to protect the turbo so fitting one is recommended... I used a Forge supersize diverter valve on the 20v and will reuse it again... spring wise I used a green so quite light as despite what the internet says its only actually a return spring as pressure should balance out in the valve top and bottom under boost so you shouldn't be using the spring to hold it shut...

If you plan to use a MAF then use a diverter (but nobody wants to use a MAF!!)... if you plan to use a proper ECU (Ignitron) and go speed density (recommended) then use whatever you want... just be aware that if you use an atmospheric valve and you plan to run WMI then place the valve before the nozzle else when you let off the throttle you will almost certainly expel meth mix as well as as charge air into the engine bay... which will be hot... and flammable stuff + hot = fire :)

<tuffty/>
 

Djordje1

New Member
If you haven't bought an ECU yet then buy an Ignitron... if you have already bought an ECU then sell it and buy an Ignitron...

Now that we have cleared that up... :)

.... I used the standard N75 on my 20v... I plan to use the N75 when I turbo the VR too... thats said... I know that Mac Valves work well as an alternative but I had no boost control issues with the OE valve so never felt compelled to change it...

Boost control is done through the Ignitron ECU... its proper PID closed loop control, multiple maps, WMI compensation and flex fuel capable... I have a load of examples of this in my build thread from when I was tuning Ignitron on my car..

as for a 'blow off' valve... they are essentially a 'safety' item designed to protect the turbo so fitting one is recommended... I used a Forge supersize diverter valve on the 20v and will reuse it again... spring wise I used a green so quite light as despite what the internet says its only actually a return spring as pressure should balance out in the valve top and bottom under boost so you shouldn't be using the spring to hold it shut...

If you plan to use a MAF then use a diverter (but nobody wants to use a MAF!!)... if you plan to use a proper ECU (Ignitron) and go speed density (recommended) then use whatever you want... just be aware that if you use an atmospheric valve and you plan to run WMI then place the valve before the nozzle else when you let off the throttle you will almost certainly expel meth mix as well as as charge air into the engine bay... which will be hot... and flammable stuff + hot = fire :)

<tuffty/>
@<tuffty/>
Unfortunately, there is no way for me to go with ECU Ignitron, All parts I'm buying are mostly from the UK and that is no problem to buy ECU Ignitron. The reason is simple...I'm far away from the UK and that is the reason why I go with ECU master because the local tuner has a lot of experience with ECU master and that is the actually only reason why I decided to go with ECU master
I would love it that I have a chance to tune my car in the badger5 garage, but that is impossible...I have to drive 24 hours to do a dyno and tuning :D is too much :)))

I have to find some good blow-off that will fit on my intercooler pipe.
1626950537546.png


I'll definitely go without the MAF sensor we can use Map Sensor to read the data. I'll definitely stay far of WMI :)
Thank you so much for all this information. I'm so happy I have a chance to talk with people who already build 1.8t.

I really appreciate,
Djordje
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Bill can remote map Ignitron if you need it and I tuned mine on the road as its that easy to do...

The ECU is nothing different from most others including ECU Master... if your tuner understands how to tune speed density then he is good to go...

In fact the VE table tunes itself!!... once you have done the base file using the base file wizard (Bill can also supply a base file if you require) then you literally just drive the car about to dial in the base VE table and go from there...

Ignition timing and boost maps are no different to tuning any other ECU so assuming your tuner is any good at all then tuning IECU shouldn't be an issue

If you are binning the MAF and going speed density then the MAP sensor will need to go in the plenum of the inlet manifold so it can see vacuum and boost (not in the charge pipe)

<tuffty/>
 

Rainbird

Registered User
I'm going to blissfully ignore the rest of your post as Tuffty is doing a sterling job of answering with more experience than me, and instead I'm just going to make the point here:
Unfortunately, there is no way for me to go with ECU Ignitron, All parts I'm buying are mostly from the UK and that is no problem to buy ECU Ignitron. The reason is simple...I'm far away from the UK and that is the reason why I go with ECU master because the local tuner has a lot of experience with ECU master and that is the actually only reason why I decided to go with ECU master
I would love it that I have a chance to tune my car in the badger5 garage, but that is impossible...I have to drive 24 hours to do a dyno and tuning :D is too much :)))
Badger 5 offer remote tuning with an Ignitron. Save yourself two days' driving ;)
 

Djordje1

New Member
Oh, guys :) Maybe I worried too much, but this is my first build and I'm scared if something goes wrong we can't fix it remotely.
I need someone who is experienced and who can react at the right time in the right way. I actually thought about that and I contact Bill a couple of months ago and ask about remote tuning just because I know that Badger5 is based on Ignitron ECU I wanted that ECU! That is not the problem and to be the honest brand of ECU doesn't mean anything to me, please do not take me wrong. I choose ECU master just because I have experienced people around me, I would be more than happy if I'm living in the UK to bring the car to Bill's garage and enjoy and not worry about anything. Badger5 doing an amazing job and they are well known as one of the best for 1.8T engines.

I'll definitely share the results I believe there is always space to improve things. I'll be more than happy to hear your opinion. But before that I have to build engine first :)
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Fair enough dude... you have to do what you need to do... looking at the EMU Classic it appears on the face of it to have all the right comparable features with wideband lambda, knock sensors etc...

Looks like it supports VE based speed density tuning so happy days

Main reason for banging on about IECU so much is that its one of the best ECU's for the 1.8t on the market... its literally plug and play and of all the standalones I have ever used in the past its the first that essentially works out the box... in particular cold start which on most standalones is the biggest PITA job to sort out...

Anyhoo... happy to help a fellow 1.8t owner out even if its not an A3/S3... its the same platform at the end of the day and the same engine....

I have a 3.2 VR6 engine in my S3 and I am still hanging about on this forum while they let me :)

<tuffty/>
 

Djordje1

New Member
Fair enough dude... you have to do what you need to do... looking at the EMU Classic it appears on the face of it to have all the right comparable features with wideband lambda, knock sensors etc...

Looks like it supports VE based speed density tuning so happy days

Main reason for banging on about IECU so much is that its one of the best ECU's for the 1.8t on the market... its literally plug and play and of all the standalones I have ever used in the past its the first that essentially works out the box... in particular cold start which on most standalones is the biggest PITA job to sort out...

Anyhoo... happy to help a fellow 1.8t owner out even if its not an A3/S3... its the same platform at the end of the day and the same engine....

I have a 3.2 VR6 engine in my S3 and I am still hanging about on this forum while they let me :)

<tuffty/>
Thank you for understanding, unfortunately is like that. I did research and looks like a good ECU I'll go with the black instead classic version. More possibilities...

I can always change the ECU and map if something goes wrong and I'm not happy with the results I'll drive 24hours to do a different ECU and MAP :)
:D haha you know what I'm talking about. To be honest, is a very nice forum and it's the only one for 1.8t with an amazing comunity and people who want to help.
ooo 6 cylinders! I can't imagine the sound that the engine produces :)That is the proper engine :))

Thank you @<tuffty/>
 
You may want to look into the WMI. The positives outweigh the negatives. You could even just run a 100 percent blend of water if you're afraid of things catching fire.

WMI can seriously help lower IAT and EGT
 
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