s3 trackday arb experiment!

[daz-20vt]

So me and prawn done a trackday in my s3 recently to try and rectify the poor handling of my car and to understand more about the s3 in regards to balance.
Now i have an oem from and an r32 rear bar which is seen to be a worthwhile upgrade.

Ive never been convinced but what do i know!!
So we bring on ASN stig to take my car out on track and he is immidiatly underwhelmed.
The lack of front end grip and the car simply doesnt want to bite in and turn.

Nick comes up with a suggestion to disconnect the front arb!!!
I thought this sounded odd but what the hell lets try it!!

The difference in front end grip was amazing!!
Night and day difference guys!!!!
The front just but so much better. And the car also became much more manageable from the back to!!
Before the car just wanted to go straight and it didnt really matter what we did.

Lost the front bar and it was much more agile
Eager to turn in and able to steer from behind (not tail happy bit controllable) and most of allnit made it so much more fun!!!!

The point here i believe is a bigger rear bar is needed to go with the 19mm front.
So thisnis what i will be doing and ill keep u guys posted as results come in.
But seriously guys the car went from being a stiff chassis no grip to a much better controlling car in 15 minutes.

Anyone handy with a spanner give it a go id love some feed back!!

 

[badger5]

stiffer rear, make more lively rear end... front rear balance is important

 

[daz-20vt]

Yes this is jind of what im trying to say.
Dont get me wrong removing the front was purely a test but it WAS a better car for it.
So imho r32 rear isnt big enough

 

[badger5]

and as for all the other geometry?

whats front rear bars on yours?

 

[daz-20vt]

Oem front
R32 rear
Dont get me wrong my car is no where near where i want it etc was literally just to experimwnt.
So further work will be done.

 

[Prawn]

Purely as an experiment to quickly alter the balance. It worked well.

It proved that a crap understeering car would be instantly transformed by latering the front - rear balance with a huge shift in ARB's. Not being able to add a larger rear on the day, the other option was to remove the front.

I strongly believe Daz's car was handling considerably worse than most due to some questionable rear toe in, but to simply alter the car on the spot it worked well.

Obviously the front rolled too much, and it still understeered, but it was notably better.

Better suspension, with more suitable spring rates Daz, and a MUCH larger rear ARB, combined with sorting out the rear toe issue (I suspect another set of tie bars OR swap them from where they are not to the top / bottom) should really transform the way it handles. Yours was an anomaly in terms of S3 handling, as I've not come across one that's wanted to plough on like that before, even in totally stock form. I can only assume it's rear toe causing it as your front end isn't a million miles off.

 

[badger5]

interesting experiment

 

[scotty_24]

When I bought my S3 4 years ago, the front anti roll bar collars were cracked causing the bar to slide through the sub frame.
Having a friend who has an account with Eibach I bought the Eibach ARB kit

https://www.dpmperformance.co.uk/ca...mm-rear-anti-roll-bars-s3-8l-18t-quattro-0199

Ive now got Eibach springs, Koni STRT Shocks and powerflex front arm bushes. The rear has S3 Dave Tie arms, and shes now sitting on Nankank NS2-R Medium Rubber.

Im booked in for a 4 wheel alignment early September after pay day, then shortly after a track day at Blyton Park.

I wonder how mine will handle?

My prediction is understeery as the eibach kit bars are close in size?

Does anyone recommend any alignment figures to use camber degrees etc?

 

[daz-20vt]

Get everything as straight as you can.
-1.3 rear camber
-2 front camber
As much castor as you can get without losing camber is what i think is right

Ish

 

[daz-20vt]

Also mr prawn i have a 19mm front bar and 19mm rear.
So what would you do at the rear?
I believe i can get 21 22 and 24mm

 

[superkarl]

This test echoes the thread over on vortex.
They are obviously combining that with much stiffer suspension to compensate for the lack of bar. Maybe something you could do before playing with more bars.

More important to get suspension and spring rates, rebound etc right first

 

[daz-20vt]

Yeh i was going to tag you in this karl as i remember you had said but i forgot

I have lots to order including a new head gasket cough cough @Prawn

 

[StaceyS3]

As Karl said Mad max and oisten on vortex have done a fair bit with the front disconnected to the point I think Max doesn't run a front bar now, but he does run quite stiff spring rates to compensate.

Interesting experiment and confirms other opinions have read. Will be trying mine on the stiffer setting on the rear when I get it back.

Look forward to more updates

 

[daz-20vt]

Well i think im going for stuffer spring rates but i wouldnt want to go soo stiff as its horrid on the road as is.
But its defo an eye opener to how important balance is and i dont really think the r32 bar only is enough.
People have said its teitchy but id say rear toe is more likely the cause

 

[badger5]

The rear has S3 Dave Tie arms

I would advise you check these for cracks..
track use, heavy loads when you take it on track.
There's a spate of these bars snapping.

Beware

 

[badger5]

As Karl said Mad max and oisten on vortex have done a fair bit with the front disconnected to the point I think Max doesn't run a front bar now, but he does run quite stiff spring rates to compensate.

Interesting experiment and confirms other opinions have read. Will be trying mine on the stiffer setting on the rear when I get it back.

Look forward to more updates

stiff springs only work on smooth surfaces..

 

[Bazzle]

Tyre pressures, tyre types, alignment /toe. All need to be set before you can really say anything re arb's
Start with tyre pressures . I have found 38psi all round to work for me with 325/40/18 Michelin PS#3.
Experiment one end at a time.
Also throttle lift/easing can change loading s a real lot. Another area to learn how to balance.
A good set of tyres can feel great.... for the 1st couple of laps, heat them up and they can run as wide as, cool down (as in street use, perfect.
Too many variables on a track.
.

 

[badger5]

hot or cold tyre temps

 

[Prawn]

I know what you’re saying about tyre pressures Bazzle, and whilst Daz is reasonably new to the whole trackday game I’d like to think I’m not quite so fresh at it.

We did absolutely everything possible on Daz’s car to try and encourage it to turn. At one point about 36 psi in the rears and 24 in the fronts to try and get it rotating and it just point blank refused.

As I said before, I think Daz has his tie bars in the wrong location, causing excessive toe in which is just killing the whole thing stone dead.

Spring rates and proper coilovers first Daz. Fit these with your current arbs and get the rear toe set to parallel and then see how the car feels before spending money elsewhere

 

[daz-20vt]

I know what you’re saying about tyre pressures Bazzle, and whilst Daz is reasonably new to the whole trackday game I’d like to think I’m not quite so fresh at it.

We did absolutely everything possible on Daz’s car to try and encourage it to turn. At one point about 36 psi in the rears and 24 in the fronts to try and get it rotating and it just point blank refused.

As I said before, I think Daz has his tie bars in the wrong location, causing excessive toe in which is just killing the whole thing stone dead.

Spring rates and proper coilovers first Daz. Fit these with your current arbs and get the rear toe set to parallel and then see how the car feels before spending money elsewhere

Thanks for steppin in man lol
You do a hetter iob explaining
Not to mention you know what you are doing.
The arb was literraly a test bazzle however like prawn says we tried everything we could with the set up we had and nothing seemed to change the car.
However the arb made a huge difference
So much so it has to be a problem. This isnt an 3nd to this convo but a start to further tests imo.
I will improve everythjng else as nick says and carry on !!!

 

[jojo]

I personally felt my car handled better with a 21mm front ARB and 19mm rear, and that's from driving around Castle Combe Circuit, I was literally flying around the corners with my final setup. Of course suspension setup and geometry is important aswell.

 

[daz-20vt]

You were flying off corners when i saw you jo lol

 

[jojo]

You were flying off corners when i saw you jo lol

There was that too!....