Acceleration (0-60mph)

[veeeight]

I think you'll find the video shows the sluggish take up very well, right until the turbo is on boost !

Once the turbo is on boost and spooled, then everything is good.

 

[Simon L]

Took this today - car was 2 mins into my journey... just in standard 'drive'



No bogging down / turbo lag or anything... never does...

**** video - but was from a standstill

Tearing those boost lights apart there mate...............nice n smooth, just like mine

 

[veeeight]

Notice those boost lights don't even light up all the way fully till he's well in the higher rev range

 

[OliS3]

The dsg is slower off the mark than a manual can be without using launch control, but it can do it all day long. From my experience having a manual s3 if you pulled off hard all the time you'd wear your clutch out in no time.

I miss my manual sometimes but I still love dsg

 

[sjbarneS3]

You can't please all the people all the time, but I'm pleased in the fact I can plant my right foot and be off... no wheelspin, no snaking up the road.
The pics below are a break down of the video; which I say again was a cold start, standard pull away at a roundabout...

Still at a standstill

Boost lights lit up

Off the gas and on my way

3 seconds.... We are talking about virtually ****** all in real time... aren't we

 

[veeeight]

I'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate here, but an identical video with a Manual S3 would show a quicker time to 30 (or 40) mph.

The figure of 3 seconds is neither here nor there, the Manual is 0.5s faster (14% faster) to 30 mph than the DSG, and for some, this will be relevant in tight situations.

Simply because you can get spin the turbo up at idle on a manual, whereas on a DSG, you would have to use Launch Control to achieve the same thing.

A DSG car, with a largish turbo, is always going to have some lag. Especially from idle, without LC.

Once on the move, the faster changes of the DSG will be of benefit over the manual.

(You will notice you didn't get your full compliment of boost lights until you were above 2500rpm)

 

[veeeight]

The OP asked if 0-60 (62) times were measured using Launch Control.

The answer is yes, because you would not achieve those times without LC.

 

[sjbarneS3]

I think I'm just demonstrating that there's ****** all in it... in real terms... Count to 'half a second'.... it's nothing....
and for the benefit of anyone reading this thinking about what may or may not be better... that's all...
I love my choice of car

 

[veeeight]

But in real terms or the real world, half a second in 100 yards can make all the difference between getting across the central reservation of a busy dual carriageway, or not



With DSG & turbo combination, you have to make an "extra" allowance.

 

[sjbarneS3]

The OP asked if 0-60 (62) times were measured using Launch Control.

The answer is yes, because you would not achieve those times without LC.

I'll look forward to my posts being deleted then, for being "off topic"

 

[sjbarneS3]

But in real terms or the real world, half a second in 100 yards can make all the difference between getting across the central reservation of a busy dual carriageway, or not



With DSG & turbo combination, you have to make an "extra" allowance.

Why take unnecessary risks... F that !

 

[veeeight]

I'll look forward to my posts being deleted then, for being "off topic"

Didn't think they were!

 

[veeeight]

Why take unnecessary risks... F that !

Except .... If you're in a manual car with a NA engine or supercharger, it wouldn't be a risk, as there would be "no" lag!!!

 

[sjbarneS3]

Except .... If you're in a manual car with a NA engine or supercharger, it wouldn't be a risk, as there would be "no" lag!!!

I beg to differ.... If you're trying to cross a lane (or lanes) of traffic, and you are doing so based on gaps of a couple of a seconds in between cars; why take the risk?
That's all

 

[veeeight]

Well, there are quite a few people that have posted in various threads on this forum, of brown trouser moments when using DSG and turbo combination from idle, so the issue obviously exists

 

[Pulp84]

Drove my S3 yesterday the first time in a month or so. Mucho fun!

However, after now driving a hybrid car day in day out with near instant torque delivery, it highlights how much lag the S3 has.....it does take some time to get shifting if accelerating without using kickdown I find.

OK you can get it shifting rapidly with a heavier right foot but it's surprising really as never thought it had much lag at all. Dynamic mode does solve this by being a gear lower of course but otherwise I don't feel the DSG helps disguise the lag one bit.

 

[S32B]

if you pulled off hard all the time you'd wear your clutch out in no time.

Another joke there...but again I better not

 

[AL_B]

I'm really enjoying this discussion. I may order a new S3 sometime this year, not sure, but I am really stuck on which transmission I would choose. I am sick of being stuck in traffic on the mostly urban route going to work. Clutch-in, clutch-out [repeat] - maybe I am getting old (I am!!), but its so tiresome in my S3 8P. So DSG appeals in one way. But do I want to sacrifice "manual clutch launch control"?

Simply because you can get spin the turbo up at idle on a manual, whereas on a DSG, you would have to use Launch Control to achieve the same thing.

A DSG car, with a largish turbo, is always going to have some lag. Especially from idle, without LC.

Once on the move, the faster changes of the DSG will be of benefit over the manual.

(You will notice you didn't get your full compliment of boost lights until you were above 2500rpm)

veeeight is right here in my opinion. As we all know with a manual, you can give 2000rpm, 3000, 4000 what ever you want, drop the clutch or slip the clutch and launch. Depending on the revs, you sometimes get the slight bog-down from the 4wd, but sometimes you don't. If you hook it up right, its instant of the line.

I assume DSG without LC would be like me letting the clutch out at a low-revs biting point and then planting it - you've got to wait for the revs and thus turbo to spool up.

I definitely need to test drive an S3 with S-Tronic.

 

[Soulboy]

I'm really enjoying this discussion. I may order a new S3 sometime this year, not sure, but I am really stuck on which transmission I would choose. I am sick of being stuck in traffic on the mostly urban route going to work. Clutch-in, clutch-out [repeat] - maybe I am getting old (I am!!), but its so tiresome in my S3 8P. So DSG appeals in one way. But do I want to sacrifice "manual clutch launch control"?

I am firmly in the manual camp (having had a DSG R32 and never really gelling with it)
BUT, if I had to do an urban commute every day, like you do, I would definitely go DSG.

 

[h5djr]

Well, there are quite a few people that have posted in various threads on this forum, of brown trouser moments when using DSG and turbo combination from idle, so the issue obviously exists

Perhaps they should learn to drive with a little less aggression. The only time I've ever had that sort of problem in five A3's with a s-tronic is when the start/stop system cut the engine just as I was attempting to pull out on to a roundabout. Solved that problem by permanently switching of the s/s system and using the manual method of switching off the engine when I thing it's necessary..

 

[veeeight]

The video above shows that it takes almost 2 full seconds to get to 20 mph.
(1.93 to 19mph)


2 seconds to get to 20 mph.

From standstill.


TWO seconds to get to 20 mph !!!!!!

What is it doing for 2 whole seconds !!!!!

 

[OliS3]

I'm really enjoying this discussion. I may order a new S3 sometime this year, not sure, but I am really stuck on which transmission I would choose. I am sick of being stuck in traffic on the mostly urban route going to work. Clutch-in, clutch-out [repeat] - maybe I am getting old (I am!!), but its so tiresome in my S3 8P. So DSG appeals in one way. But do I want to sacrifice "manual clutch launch control"?



veeeight is right here in my opinion. As we all know with a manual, you can give 2000rpm, 3000, 4000 what ever you want, drop the clutch or slip the clutch and launch. Depending on the revs, you sometimes get the slight bog-down from the 4wd, but sometimes you don't. If you hook it up right, its instant of the line.

I assume DSG without LC would be like me letting the clutch out at a low-revs biting point and then planting it - you've got to wait for the revs and thus turbo to spool up.

I definitely need to test drive an S3 with S-Tronic.

The DSG slips the clutch a little so you aren't pulling off at idle but it isn't anything like you can do with a manual box. If you use dynamic mode it slips the clutch more and then the biggest part of pulling out quickly is having to switch from the brake pedal to the accelerator pedal which I think adds to the feeling of delay when pulling out quickly.

I have had the no power issue a few times but that has only happened when I'm using the car in manual mode in a high gear and I quickly ask for 2nd gear and expect it straight away. I find when using manual if i'm in 6th and want say 3rd, rather than 3 slow clicks I do 3 fast clicks and the box doesn't try and do 5th, then 4th and then 3rd it just goes straight to 3rd with minimal delay.

I've had both manual and DSG and all you can do is try them and see what you like. Probably 90% I love DSG, just that 10% I miss having a manual box.

 

[h5djr]

What you need is a 184 hp diesel. More torque (350 rather than 300 Nm) and at much lower revs (1750 rather than 5500)

 

[sjbarneS3]

The video above shows that it takes almost 2 full seconds to get to 20 mph.
(1.93 to 19mph)


2 seconds to get to 20 mph.

From standstill.


TWO seconds to get to 20 mph !!!!!!

What is it doing for 2 whole seconds !!!!!

Only 1.3 (as I was still stationary at 0.63 sec)
and I wasn't booting it....

Just sayin' y'al

 

[veeeight]

Ya can't be at standstill at 0:63 because ya rev counter is showing 2000 rpm !!!

Unless at 2000 rpm the car really still isn't moving - or the refresh rate of the digital speedo is rubbish!!!

 

[sjbarneS3]

Ya can't be at standstill at 0:63 because ya rev counter is showing 2000 rpm !!!

Unless at 2000 rpm the car really still isn't moving - or the refresh rate of the digital speedo is rubbish!!!

Both speedos indicate 0...

 

[veeeight]

Then that's just a demonstration that even at 2000 rpm the car still isn't moving due to the DSG slipping the clutch and the turbo still trying to spin up


PS. My car moves at 2000 rpm, your analogue speedo needle isn't quite vertical ...

 

[veeeight]

Alright.

I'll stop now.

 

[Pulp84]

Perhaps they should learn to drive with a little less aggression. The only time I've ever had that sort of problem in five A3's with a s-tronic is when the start/stop system cut the engine just as I was attempting to pull out on to a roundabout. Solved that problem by permanently switching of the s/s system and using the manual method of switching off the engine when I thing it's necessary..

Think it might be an S3 issue due to the lag so it's a bit more complicated than describing it as driving with aggression.

To explain - I've personally had a few instances where I have had to come to a stop at a junction of a fast flowing roundabout. I've looked and there is no car coming so prod the accelerator to move off and then look again and see a car coming at me at speed out of nowhere.

The combination of the ECU taking time to work out the command of my right foot, the DSG also taking time to engage and the turbo not spooled up leads to moment of panic in situations like I have described.

The car is moving albeit very slow and you get that horrible moment where you lock eyes with the oncoming driver. You then boot the throttle to get the thing moving faster (as you have basically committed to pulling out in the path of another car) and then you launch off like a stabbed rat. I always feel I must look a bit silly to the oncoming driver as I've accelerated off with super gutso.

Just one of those unintended consequences of the S3 DSG combination As you note, your diesel won't have this issue.

 

[OliS3]

Think it might be an S3 issue due to the lag so it's a bit more complicated than describing it as driving with aggression.

To explain - I've personally had a few instances where I have had to come to a stop at a junction of a fast flowing roundabout. I've looked and there is no car coming so prod the accelerator to move off and then look again and see a car coming at me at speed out of nowhere.

The combination of the ECU taking time to work out the command of my right foot, the DSG also taking time to engage and the turbo not spooled up leads to moment of panic in situations like I have described.

The car is moving albeit very slow and you get that horrible moment where you lock eyes with the oncoming driver. You then boot the throttle to get the thing moving faster (as you have basically committed to pulling out in the path of another car) and then you launch off like a stabbed rat. I always feel I must look a bit silly to the oncoming driver as I've accelerated off with super gutso.

Just one of those unintended consequences of the S3 DSG combination As you note, your diesel won't have this issue.

That sums it up very well

 

[Martinbanshee]

Although, if it's a notoriously tricky roundabout or junction you could always prod the lever into S mode beforehand, join the traffic and prod it back into D.
If that doesn't do the job maybe the gap's a bit too small to be sneaking in.

 

[Pulp84]

Although, if it's a notoriously tricky roundabout or junction you could always prod the lever into S mode beforehand, join the traffic and prod it back into D.
If that doesn't do the job maybe the gap's a bit too small to be sneaking in.

Nope.....it doesn't make any difference in the situation I've noted in post #109. Wish it did lol. This is a very specific roundabout that due to its layout it's hard to see traffic coming from a particular direction, hence pulling out and then all of a sudden being in the path of an oncoming car.

From an idle position its quiet slow to get going. LC gets round that issue as the clutch pack is engaged and the turbo is spooled up. Totally impractical obviously to use LC all the time

 

[Martinbanshee]

I would have thought the slightly higher idle speed of S mode would help but I've never needed to try it. Personally, I've never had an issue at junctions but maybe the traffic isn't as mental up here .
I noticed my V6 S-tronic TT definitely jumped away from junctions quicker than the S3 although it's was slower to 60mph.
I still love the S-tronic box but I miss the VR6 3.2 engine

 

[AL_B]

Do other manufacturers cope with this better?

Some of them do. They have twin scroll turbos, variable vane turbos etc. all of which aid the fundamental issue.

The standard IHI turbo as fitted to the S3, is not a sophisticated turbo.


Here's a comparison of two cars, both in non Launch Control mode.

That is a good video. I notice the guy uses brake-torquing in the BMW to get an even better launch. Is that definitely not possible in the S-tronic? I guess not, otherwise he would have done it.

 

[RGBARGEE]

What you need is a 184 hp diesel. More torque (350 rather than 300 Nm) and at much lower revs (1750 rather than 5500)

No thanks...

 

[AL_B]

I also found this thread discussing the same thing.

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/launch-without-launch-control.220996/

That thread mentioned you can build rev's whilst the DSG car is stationary, but only to 1500rpm. Is that in all modes?
What about if you hold the car on the electro-mechanical hand brake? Can you never build revs to say 2500rpm?

The solution to this is simple (other than buying a manual), Audi need to do a software update that gives us drivers more control, i.e. left foot on brake pedal, allow manual control of revs up to say max 4000rpm (as used by launch control) to build boost, release brake an whooooosh - a manual DSG launch.

I have to say, from what I have read so far, I am leaning towards a manual gearbox. I am so disappointed with what I have read about DSG. I think that video of the BMW vs the S3 DSG really hits it home for me. I set-off briskly a lot, its the advantage of having a reasonably powerful car with 4wd. But the thought of loosing 0.6 to 1 second in DSG S3 without using launch control will make the car not much faster than my current S3 8P manual (based on book figures).

AL

 

[veeeight]

The only way to know for sure is to try out both variants for yourself.

On a test drive with a S3 however, it's easy to get overexcited at the shifts and burps that the DSG offers, and not dwell so much on the slow speed stuff etc.

To answer your query about using the EPB:

If you keep the EPB switch pulled with your finger, you can build boost to around 2k rpm that way. However there is a slight delay (quarter to half a second) after releasing the EPB switch and the car moving while the various ECU's sort things out, so as long as you account for this, it is a work-around (sort of, but not really satisfactory).

 

[Martinbanshee]

I think most people with DSG/S-Tronic would agree the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages although you can't please all the people all the time.
I drive a manual vehicle every day (VW Caddy) and I can't wait to get into my car with S-Tronic, there's much less effort needed to keep moving along.
It's easy to go quick too as you don't need to get the perfect upshift every time like you do with a manual.