Porsche "Big Reds" brakes
- Thread starter keem
- Start date
If you do a search this has been covered many times before, with, I believe, the general consensus that the Brembo GT kit (i.e. as fitted to the Leon Cupra R) they one most people seem to recommend. It also has the advantage that the calipers are better matched to the S3 master cylinder, meaning you don't end up with masses of pedal travel which you can get with some of the Porsche kits.
these are also two part calipers as opposed to the monoblocs fitted to the 996
multiblock calipers suffer from an expensive design fault that is costly to repair. they corrode behind the pad that can cause binding or pad drag.
save your pennies and get some later "reds"
multiblock calipers suffer from an expensive design fault that is costly to repair. they corrode behind the pad that can cause binding or pad drag.
save your pennies and get some later "reds"
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
It does...and if you are braking so hard you are bending the callipers, you must have a very well sorted car and be driving on the track!
I wouldn't worry about 2pc vs monoblock.
Just get a kit that works well with your master cylinder. The Brembo GT jr kit is as good as anyone really needs...anything else is just pose value and more emptying of the wallet.
I wouldn't worry about 2pc vs monoblock.
Just get a kit that works well with your master cylinder. The Brembo GT jr kit is as good as anyone really needs...anything else is just pose value and more emptying of the wallet.
Okay, but i would think that the 993tt brakes are the way to go, with output above 400bhp, which is what im reaching for 
But are the 993tt callipers too large for the master cylinder?
But are the 993tt callipers too large for the master cylinder?
s3_kev
Stage2'd!!!!!!
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 2,001
- Reaction score
- 23
- Points
- 38
surly if your aiming for 400bhp then you will want to change the wheels to 18" and wider then standard to for best handling to match the brakes and power output so i would'nt be to worried about keeping the brakes tucked up under the 17's, save the cash for the brakes untill you buy new larger wheels
The piston size in the Brembo GT kit is near identical to the 993TT calipers so I wouldn't expect any real difference in performance between the two. The monoblocks are wider so you can expect space issues with 17" wheels.
Anything more than the Brembo's is a waste of money, regardless of the power. Its still the same weight you're slowing down.
Anything more than the Brembo's is a waste of money, regardless of the power. Its still the same weight you're slowing down.
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
What it comes down to is this:
Do you want to pay more for 'Porsche' written on them?
The Porsche brakes are Brembos anyway...but if having Porsche on them means that much...buy them.
Failing that, buy a set of Brembo GT jrs, buy a set of DS2500 pads (or similar) if you find the standard pads lacking on the track (you won't on the road, I'm almost certain, regardless of your power) and pocket the rest towards new discs - which are consumables anyway - and available from any SEAT dealer.
Try getting ESC parts in a hurry...
You can bring the ABS on at silly speeds with the basic Brembo kit...you have a slightly better pedal feel due to fractionally smaller pistons...so all that remains is for you to work out how much you want your big shiny callipers to read Porsche, over Brembo.
Do you want to pay more for 'Porsche' written on them?
The Porsche brakes are Brembos anyway...but if having Porsche on them means that much...buy them.
Failing that, buy a set of Brembo GT jrs, buy a set of DS2500 pads (or similar) if you find the standard pads lacking on the track (you won't on the road, I'm almost certain, regardless of your power) and pocket the rest towards new discs - which are consumables anyway - and available from any SEAT dealer.
Try getting ESC parts in a hurry...
You can bring the ABS on at silly speeds with the basic Brembo kit...you have a slightly better pedal feel due to fractionally smaller pistons...so all that remains is for you to work out how much you want your big shiny callipers to read Porsche, over Brembo.
ash_s3
Registered User
I had the ECS Stage 2 V2 setup on my old S3, braked very well indeed but i wouldnt say they were much better than the Brembo GT kit i had on my previous S3, especially for the price difference.
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
I picked up some Porsche 4 pots from Germany with delivery mileage on them (30km) but you would not have known and they were less than a new set from the usual sources here.
depends if you have time to shop around and wait a bit to save some cash.
on monoblocs vs. 2 pc calipers, it is not so much the "bending" of the caliper but the design of the parts involved and the issues with corrosion building up and causing binding.
I saw first hand an S4 that had these fitted and the labour cost to get them stripped, cleaned and replace seals etc was more than I would want to pay for a new set!
plus, monoblocs are so freely available now, you can pick them up for less than £300 a pair, add pads discs and adapters and you are still short of the price of a new GT kit
depends if you have time to shop around and wait a bit to save some cash.
on monoblocs vs. 2 pc calipers, it is not so much the "bending" of the caliper but the design of the parts involved and the issues with corrosion building up and causing binding.
I saw first hand an S4 that had these fitted and the labour cost to get them stripped, cleaned and replace seals etc was more than I would want to pay for a new set!
plus, monoblocs are so freely available now, you can pick them up for less than £300 a pair, add pads discs and adapters and you are still short of the price of a new GT kit
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
Why?
Because they are from a 993 turbo?
Even Porsche has developed better callipers than the 2pc 993 big Reds...so they are good, but old. And either way...they won't make your car stop like a 911.
The Brembo kit is all you'll ever need...trust people that have bought them. Hell, even people who ran the 993TT kit are saying the Brembo GT kit is all you need.
with output above 400bhp, which is what im reaching for
Power has nothing to do with it...it's mass, how late you brake and from what speed. A re-mapped S3 will give the brakes just as hard a time as a 400BHP S3 if the driver is hard on the brakes - as, for that matter, will a standard S3 with a late braking helmsman.
Either is a vast improvement over standard...both work well.
I can't see the point in spending more than you have to...but I didn't feel the need to have 'Porsche' written on my S3s callipers.
In my view, yes, they are too large.
You loose some feel...and S3 brakes are pretty dead standard.
The 993TTs work, and work well...but you get a longer pedal stroke and less feel....which may not matter to you.
But you can lock the wheels on the standard GT jr kit (with standard pads) at pretty much any speed - bringing the ABS on - so why spend more?
It's entirely up to you...but you'll find a set of GT jrs with better pads work better than the 993TT set up with standard pads and likely still cost less! Even the standard GT jr kit vs 993TT on the road are hard to separate on braking performance...perhaps the 2pc discs work better after 10 laps on the track, but on the road...no difference to outright power.
You pays your money and makes your choice...
Spend more for a badge if you want to. But you don't need to...that's all we are saying.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2004
- Messages
- 341
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 18
- Location
- Cambridge
- Website
- www.glenster.co.uk
I would second that....
Not sure if I've got the Brembo GT Junior kit though. I think it's just the normal Brembo GT kit.
I did the Silverstone gp circuit not so long ago, and gave the brakes a good hammering.
They didn't fade once.
The feel is no different really to standard brakes in my opinion.
I did notice however that pedal travel increased somewhat when it got hot.
Oh and err, I got some judder after the trackday, which has been eradicated by cleaning the discs. However, I think my pads are ********, as they're breaking into many pieces... Need to speak to Backdraft about that...
Not sure if I've got the Brembo GT Junior kit though. I think it's just the normal Brembo GT kit.
I did the Silverstone gp circuit not so long ago, and gave the brakes a good hammering.
They didn't fade once.
The feel is no different really to standard brakes in my opinion.
I did notice however that pedal travel increased somewhat when it got hot.
Oh and err, I got some judder after the trackday, which has been eradicated by cleaning the discs. However, I think my pads are ********, as they're breaking into many pieces... Need to speak to Backdraft about that...
scott_johnson
Registered User
I agree, my Porsche gt3's are no better than the brembo GT kit!! plus the porsche 4pots are stupidy wide so dont expect wheels to fit without silly size spacers (as i found out the hard way)
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
The 'jr' kit has the single piece discs, same as the LCR, but either driiled (yeuch...best avoided) or grooved (only ever seen one set)
I believe there was another kit with 2pc discs that was knows as the 'snr' kit...but i've never actually seen a set in the metal.
Being ultra critical, you maybe have a few more mm brake pedal travel with a Brembo GT kit over standard...but noticably more again with the Porsche conversions I've tried.
With regard to your pads breaking up Glen...you have binned the brake inner shields haven't you?
If not...do so.
I can't recall is the instructions tell you to bend them back, or remove them - bend them back I think.
Either way...the S3s brakes overheat easily...so letting cold air is is always good.
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
A couple of other things to consider:
The bigger the disc, the more bling it looks behind wheels, if that's your bag...but the harder it is to make the car turn in (gyroscope effect) to ideally, you want the smallest disc you can get away with to do the job.
Massive heavy discs look impressive...but take power to accellerate (making the car slower)and more effort to turn (killing the handling)
Also, don't go believing the hype that a 2pc disc is 'better' than a single piece disc.
The makers give you all the patter...but if a single pices disc is good enough for Porsche on the GT3, turbo and GT3 cup car...it's good enough for a road going S3!
Porsche dropped 2pc discs with the 996...along with 'Big Reds'. They went monoblock callipers and single piece discs - and I don't see much evidence of recent Porsche brakes being in any way inferior to the earlier set-ups...
In fact...they just keep getting better and better.
If a 996 turbo can stop from 190+ MPH (and weighs more than a 911) with 'only' 330x30 single piece discs and 4 pot monoblock callipers...do you think you need 355mm 2 pc discs and 6 pot callipers on an S3?
No...
The Brembo GT kit is a great match for the chassis and master cylinder.
The bigger the disc, the more bling it looks behind wheels, if that's your bag...but the harder it is to make the car turn in (gyroscope effect) to ideally, you want the smallest disc you can get away with to do the job.
Massive heavy discs look impressive...but take power to accellerate (making the car slower)and more effort to turn (killing the handling)
Also, don't go believing the hype that a 2pc disc is 'better' than a single piece disc.
The makers give you all the patter...but if a single pices disc is good enough for Porsche on the GT3, turbo and GT3 cup car...it's good enough for a road going S3!
Porsche dropped 2pc discs with the 996...along with 'Big Reds'. They went monoblock callipers and single piece discs - and I don't see much evidence of recent Porsche brakes being in any way inferior to the earlier set-ups...
In fact...they just keep getting better and better.
If a 996 turbo can stop from 190+ MPH (and weighs more than a 911) with 'only' 330x30 single piece discs and 4 pot monoblock callipers...do you think you need 355mm 2 pc discs and 6 pot callipers on an S3?
No...
The Brembo GT kit is a great match for the chassis and master cylinder.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2004
- Messages
- 341
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 18
- Location
- Cambridge
- Website
- www.glenster.co.uk
Thanks for the insight Ess_Three.
Backdraft removed the inner shields when they fitted my brakes.
However, I do notice that the holes get filled with black stuff, and they are not hollow like on my bike. Don't think that's normal, so I reckon my pads are screwed....
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
off topic....do the standard calipers have shields and is it worth bending them back if so?
sorry to steal thread...quick answer please
The shields are for the disc, standard on an S3.
Remove them...let more air in!
Mine lasted less than a week from new.
Thanks for the inputs! I see that AmD is selling a Porsche kit also "AMD PORSCHE FRONT BRAKE KIT 322MM" with the 993tt calliper. whats the difference from the kit from ECS? I guess its other disc's?
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
Probably LCR discs - aren't they 322mm - with LCR carriers and Porsche callipers.
Unless the Porsche stuff is cheaper...honestly, just go for the Brembo kit. They just work...
The LCR has the same master cylinder as the S3...so you know they aren't miss-matched.
Unless the Porsche stuff is cheaper...honestly, just go for the Brembo kit. They just work...
The LCR has the same master cylinder as the S3...so you know they aren't miss-matched.
With the ECS rears and race pads all round they stopped phenomenally well.
Can't really add anything that Ess_Three hasn't already said. Other than tyres. There's no point in having a top notch braking system if you have crap tyres and/or wrong pressures. The Porsche and Brembo kits are an upgrade over standard but niether out-performs the other.
The drilled holes tend to clog up with brake dust and become the start point of radial cracking. Its also worth noting that the pedal travel is increased exponentially with pad and disc wear. The travel isn't that bad with a new set-up but 10k later its a different stroy.
fluid!!
don't spend £1-1500 on brakes and then scrimp on fluid, flush it, change regularly and get some decent stuff, don;t get put off because it is "£30 a litre"...who gives a sh!t. its the most important liquid in your car and the one that is most ignored!
don't spend £1-1500 on brakes and then scrimp on fluid, flush it, change regularly and get some decent stuff, don;t get put off because it is "£30 a litre"...who gives a sh!t. its the most important liquid in your car and the one that is most ignored!
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
Agreed...
But, for road use, you really don't need to switch to competition based fluids...just flush through and replace with fresh, new, Dot 4 or 5.1 at least once every 2 years - each year is better.
For road use, on standard pads, you don't generate enough heat to boil the fluid. On the track, if you run 'competition' based track pads, you may, in which case by all means spend more.
But for Brembos, on an S3, used on the road...stick with standard spec Dot 4 or 5.1 from a decent manufacturer and you'll be fine.
I think I used some Lockheed Dot 5.1 stuff at around £10 per litre.
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
Ok, i give up. ill go for the Brembo kit
I suspect the picture in the AmD ad is not the actual kit...as the GT jr kit doesn't get the 2pc discs...
The TT shop have them here:
http://www.thettshop.com/latest.asp?cat=2008&product=600438
...and that's exactly what you will get to fit an S3.
AmD are cheaper though...
Was in the TT shop last week, (just discovered it was on my door step) i asked about the brembo setup and they were saying there was problems with supplys at the mo so you may have to wait a bit. Really nice setup they have there, and reasonable price wise, managed to get my new lower wishbones £50 cheaper than buying them from audi.
Sorry for using this one but didn't want to open up new thread...
Does anyone know what other parts would I need to fit LCR Brembo set to my S3 beside discs, pads and calipers?
Isn't it cheaper to get Brembo's from Seat dealer rather from tt Shop or motorsportworld ?
Is the 1pcs disc vs 2 pcs disc the only diffrence beetwen brembo jr kit and regular kit? I'm a little bit confused on this. For example should I assume this is the jr kit?
http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/det...06A&PID=626830
Cheers
Does anyone know what other parts would I need to fit LCR Brembo set to my S3 beside discs, pads and calipers?
Isn't it cheaper to get Brembo's from Seat dealer rather from tt Shop or motorsportworld ?
Is the 1pcs disc vs 2 pcs disc the only diffrence beetwen brembo jr kit and regular kit? I'm a little bit confused on this. For example should I assume this is the jr kit?
http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/det...06A&PID=626830
Cheers
Ess_Three
Registered User
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Messages
- 5,383
- Reaction score
- 20
- Points
- 38
- Age
- 52
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
Discs, pads, callipers, callipers carriers, mounting bolts, brake hoses. I think that's all.
The advantage of the Brembo kit is that you ger braided hoses with it...rather than the rubber OEM efforts.
I don't think so...
Not last time I priced stuff up, it wasn't.
Yeah, the single piece disc is known as the 'jr' kit.
Aky
Aky
Why not try a 2nd hand set from Ebay, TT Forum. In fact there's a set for sale on UKMKIVS.NET I got mine off Piston heads. £450 and had only been used for 500 miles.
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/208435.aspx
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/208435.aspx
